So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[ForteNightshade]

I'd rather sit through the 20 minutes *once* than have to reset the fight over and over with a chance of us not being able to finish the raid. Not against enrage timers for the content they exist in, just wouldn't be enthusiastic about introducing them into this kind of content. DPS check phases exist in every one of the Ivalice raids, so the punishment for failing mechanics is already in place, just not as severe.

They are less severe, they're downright trivial. Only just this week, I had an Orbonne run with just twenty people; at least four died during adds. We still made the DPS check, albeit just barely. That's essentially a full Alliance worth of players and it's still passable. With regards to Weeping City. People complained because the dev team has a persistence for caving in. Ironically, they didn't for Weeping, Nidhogg and even Shinryu later on. Eventually, people stopped whining when they knew it wasn't going to change.

While I do not think 24 mans, trials and the like should be insanely hard or any such thing. I don't think demanding people be halfway decent is asking too much here. In fact, Death Wing has an enrage. It worked just fine.

Sad truth being that those players probably don't know they are pushing low numbers.

They sheer amount of people I've seen absolutely shocked at this damage when they ask about parsers really highlights this.

[RyuSaarva]

I had a 23min E4 NM run the other day and at the end the DPS who did less damage than I did (on whm) wrote GG in chat. No. That was not good game, friendo.
We need enrage timers in NM 8 man raids, please. I don't want my weekly NM raids take longer than Ultimates and need more HPS...

at least you cleared it and did not get a vote abandon party.

[Granyala]

We need enrage timers in NM 8 man raids, please. I don't want my weekly NM raids take longer than Ultimates and need more HPS...

No, instead you want to queue 5x to fish out a competent group to actually clear the thing and spend upwards of an hour in the queues alone... yeah that sure sounds a lot better than having a somewhat lengthy encounter.

[LalaRu]

I 'd be perfectly fine with a stone/sky/sea

Requiring to pass its SSS before unlocking the actual duty, will be something interesting to look forward at.

[Liam_Harper]

Requiring to pass its SSS before unlocking the actual duty, will be something interesting to look forward at.

They'd never do it. It'd be WoW with Proving Ground Silver all over again, some players would actually never beat it and would quit over it. Rather than improve or admit to any fault, we'd have walls of threads about how overtuned it is. Even now people claim SSS is overtuned, while I'm 40 sec or so left on the timer for EX and consider myself a fairly average player with a lot to improve on in actual fights. Or those players who rant about groups with ilv requirements over the minimum when the game is raining 450 on you and they can't be bother to put minimal effort into a character before joining an endgame content group.

It's a sad fact that MMO's are intentionally designed that the good players carry the bad ones who can't be bothered, so they happily keep paying a sub.

[wdeschain]

Even now people claim SSS is overtuned,

It is job dependent, but SSS is and has been overtuned. Google "are ffxiv SSS dummies overtuned," and it will return plenty of posts--some with SE admittance(source citations peppered about even).

[Andevom]

They are less severe, they're downright trivial. Only just this week, I had an Orbonne run with just twenty people; at least four died during adds. We still made the DPS check, albeit just barely. That's essentially a full Alliance worth of players and it's still passable. With regards to Weeping City. People complained because the dev team has a persistence for caving in. Ironically, they didn't for Weeping, Nidhogg and even Shinryu later on. Eventually, people stopped whining when they knew it wasn't going to change.

Well sure, *now* they're all much easier. Take that same situation when the fight was relevant and I doubt your group would've made it. But yes, once the clears started coming in, people stopped complaining. I'd argue that's because, ultimately, these encounters were designed well and the devs saw that people were clearing at rates that fell within expectations. For me, Weeping City's situation was revealing in that people who thought they were much better at the game and demanded "midcore" content got something close to that and couldn't tackle it right away. Rather than consider they needed to improve, they immediately complained it was too difficult.

While I do not think 24 mans, trials and the like should be insanely hard or any such thing. I don't think demanding people be halfway decent is asking too much here. In fact, Death Wing has an enrage. It worked just fine.

It's not asking for too much, but the implication seems to be your group can be brain dead and clear 24 player raids when that has been demonstrably untrue in the past. And Deathgaze Hollow's enrage worked fine because it was the first boss of the raid, not three fights in when you've already invested a good chunk of time.

[Granyala]

It's a sad fact that MMO's are intentionally designed that the good players carry the bad ones who can't be bothered, so they happily keep paying a sub.

I think Ghostcrawler put it best: If you ask people to raise to a challenge, most will try a few times and then quit instead of actually working on improving themselves.
https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/sta...396162?lang=en
https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...93830291095553

Cataclysm has proven that pretty effectively. While it was tons of fun for us in guild groups, it was SUPER painful in random groups.
I can understand SE learning this lesson and not trying it again themselves.

[Nora_of_Mira]

It's a sad fact that MMO's are intentionally designed that the good players carry the bad ones who can't be bothered, so they happily keep paying a sub.

I think it's more accurate to say that MMOs are designed with human behaviors in mind and the format of difficult/easy content is a response to these human tendencies to avoid things we dont like. casual players dont want to have to try to get better for the content so they either avoid it altogether or keep lying to themselves and hope they get carried.

[Ronduwil]

See, I don't agree. I played WoW for more than a decade, and I dabbled in raiding (very very casually) BC through WoD and then did a bit of mythic in Legion. And I *loved* having a damage meter.

Who says we don't agree? I loved having a damage meter, too. What I didn't love was running through random on-level Deadmines with a jerk decked out in heirlooms spamming the meters after every boss fight and complaining about how he's carrying the group through all 20 seconds of it. Maybe it's because I love to level alts, but that wasn't a one-off experience. I saw it all the time. I'm just saying that the current don't-ask-don't-tell policy is just fine. If you want to have your damage meter, you can have it, but don't advertise it unless it's with your FC in Discord.