So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[Ronduwil]

On the other hand, others would like to enjoy their game without having to pick up slack from players that want to be deliberately lazy.



Most people don’t care how others play unless it becomes detrimental or an annoyance to them during cooperative content. Everyone is free to do what they want—but when Billy joins Alliance Roulette and decides to AFK the entire time in Sycrus Tower, the rest of the alliance is allowed to call him out and criticize him for that. As well as dismiss him.

The example you gave falls under the category of "a time and place for criticism." I'm not saying that you shouldn't call out and kick players who are AFK in group PvP. I'm saying that if Billy queues up for leveling roulette at level 30 and doesn't notice that his auto-gear recommender button threw on cloth pants because his metal pants are still level 10, then maybe you should cut him a little slack as long as bosses are being successfully cleared. If Billy spends half the fight idle or AFK, that's another matter. I haven't ever seen it in this game, but in WoW, I saw many players who would run into low-level instances decked out in heirloom gear (which was far superior to anything available to new players). They would post DPS meters after every fight and whine about how they were carrying the group. I haven't seen that behavior in this game, and I'd like to keep it that way.

[HyoMinPark]

Well then what is the assumed ilevel? There's a reason why min ilevel exists if not they why even bother having something so arbitrary?

I believe the minimum item level is more so a “recommendation” of what would be ideal to have as the absolute minimum going into the content. But I don’t think that the developers use it as a hard-and-fast metric for balance.

I’d wager that the presumed item level for something like E4S would be a few item levels above the minimum i450 required for entry. I don’t know if they’d push it quite to i460...however, it’s possible that they assume that’s around the item level most players would have once they reached the content. Because, let’s face it: not every raider goes for Week 1 clears, when clearing would be the most challenging. And not every player can push the damage required for minimum item level clears.

The example you gave falls under the category of "a time and place for criticism." I'm not saying that you shouldn't call out and kick players who are AFK in group PvP. I'm saying that if Billy queues up for leveling roulette at level 30 and doesn't notice that his auto-gear recommender button threw on cloth pants because his metal pants are still level 10, then maybe you should cut him a little slack as long as bosses are being successfully cleared.

While the lower level content has become more and more trivial as the years have passed, I think the undergearing issues you have presented here would also fall under your “a time and place for criticism” criterion. If you enter, for example, Stone Vigil with level 30 DoM pants on your tank because your only other tank-specific pants are level 10, I think it’s warranted that you receive some criticism for that because it’s straight gear neglect. I’m not saying people are allowed to suddenly cuss you out for it, but they are more than within their right to call you out for gear neglect. While I know a lot of people like to use the “but we still cleared” reasoning for defending poor gear, I don’t really like that excuse. Yeah, maybe you did clear: but the healer had to work harder to keep you alive because you neglected your gear.

And Stone Vigil is also one of the ARR dungeons that can’t be entirely facerolled—it still hurts quite a bit.

If it was posted in chat, then it was potentially harassment, unintended or not. Why didn't he PM the numbers to the player who asked for them?

I’m sorry, how it is harassment to tell someone who willingly asked for their numbers their numbers? Please explain your logic here.

[Ronduwil]

There was actually a thread on here a couple months back about a person who was pulled into GM Gaol and given a temp ban for posting numbers in chat to a player who explicitly asked how they were doing. There was no harassment involved, yet someone still reported them because “omg parser bad”.

If it was posted in chat, then it was potentially harassment, unintended or not. Why didn't he PM the numbers to the player who asked for them?

[Ronduwil]

You say that, but you've never spent 2 hours wiping in 24 man raids because you get grouped up with a bunch of those people who never bothered to learn mechanics and expect the rest of the group to be able to carry them, or don't understand they are bad cuz people stopped trying to help because of attitudes like yours.

Why are you even raiding with players like that? Find a good FC and raid with them. Problem solved.

[HyoMinPark]

Why are you even raiding with players like that? Find a good FC and raid with them. Problem solved.

...Valkyrie is talking about 24-man raids. Not 8-man Savage raids. Pardon, but not everyone is in a large FC where they can grab 23 other people to do their weekly 24-man run with, nor should they really be expected to do that. 24-mans are largely done in the Duty Finder in all regions.

People could also just learn how to do the mechanics and not expect to be carried. Novel concept.

[Ronduwil]

I’m sorry, how it is harassment to tell someone who willingly asked for their numbers their numbers? Please explain your logic here.

I explicitly said that those numbers should have been communicated to the player who willing asked for their numbers via PM (personal message). The harassment was in broadcasting them to the entire chat. Sorry I wasn't clear.

[SturmChurro]

Eh, not worth it. Person could be baiting plus you will always have those logs if the GM decides to check your history. Just don't post about it AT ALL in-game. Whether you have good intentions or not.

[HyoMinPark]

I explicitly said that those numbers should have been communicated to the player who willing asked for their numbers via PM (personal message). The harassment was in broadcasting them to the entire chat. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Again, how is that harassment? If the person asks for their numbers, they lose the right to be offended by what they see, if I'm being honest. As for PMs, there is no PM system in this game aside from /tell. I think it's important to note that you cannot send cross-server /tells without being on an individual's friend's list first, and this is a relatively new feature. Before, you had to be on the same server as the person to /tell them; even when cross-world PF first became a thing in Patch 3.4.

Sorry, your reasoning still falls flat here, in my opinion. Person A asked for their numbers, and Person A cannot choose to suddenly be offended or "feel harassed" if Person B gives them what they requested. Especially if it wasn't asked to be given to them in a private manner, and these requests generally aren't (in my experience, people tend to say "Was anyone parsing that? How did I do?" - most parties are silent because of what I mentioned in the post you replied to being likely to happen).

The report wasn't likely to have come from the person requesting their numbers, anyways. It was more likely to have come from a Person C, who got up in arms because "omg parser bad" and decided to report despite no actual harassment occurring. There are individuals like that out there.

Eh, not worth it. Person could be baiting plus you will always have those logs if the GM decides to check your history. Just don't post about it AT ALL in-game. Whether you have good intentions or not.

I agree that it's not worth it to do it at all, but some people think they're being helpful or nice providing what another asked for. I am just disagreeing with Ronduwil's notion that posting requested numbers = harassment. He'd have a case if he were talking about someone who didn't request their performance and was having it posted without their permission, but I don't think he has much of one with regards to someone who explicitly asked "How did I do".

[Ronduwil]

...Valkyrie is talking about 24-man raids. Not 8-man Savage raids. Pardon, but not everyone is in a large FC where they can grab 23 other people to do their weekly 24-man run with, nor should they really be expected to do that. 24-mans are largely done in the Duty Finder in all regions.

Coming from WoW, I find this point of view hilariously refreshing. There are tons of thread wars in WoW over whether 25-man raids should be accessible through the WoW equivalent of duty finder (Raid Finder/LFR). The consensus among the elitists there is that widely accessible 25-man content breeds bad players who get used to being carried and should therefore be limited exclusively to pre-made groups. Personally, I think that raids available through duty finder should have no more than 10 people. Any more than that, and it's tough to maintain accountability. The problem is not that people aren't learning how to do mechanics and expecting to be carried. The problem is that 4% of the players aren't learning the mechanics, and odds are that one of those guys will be in your group every time when you're running with 24 random people.

[NinesAI]

6 years


We've been having this same exact conversation for near 6 years with no inclination of square wanting to bend a knee for people who get sour experiences because they have (reportable I might add) asshats in their party.

How many more years is this gonna go on before people just give up and realize that SE don't care about them aslong as they're used in their intended manner without harassing people or speaking about it openly, and no constant moaning, lying about data protection (was literally a thing around 2.0) or outright lying/pretending that you can napkin math your DPS + gear variables will change it.