So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[Granyala]

Thanks @Liam_Harper, pretty much as I thought.

This is because in EX content & Savage content, healers & tanks both need to pull their weight and deal decent damage for their respective classes.

I thought the encounter design team stated multiple times that healer DPS was not a factor when designing the bosses.
Tanks may be different though, because they are essentially blue DPS with a few extras.

[MPK]

Thanks @Liam_Harper, pretty much as I thought.


I thought the encounter design team stated multiple times that healer DPS was not a factor when designing the bosses.
Tanks may be different though, because they are essentially blue DPS with a few extras.

It's not possible to clear savage without healer DPS at min ilevel even if everone is doing the most optimized dps

[Hawklaser]

I thought the encounter design team stated multiple times that healer DPS was not a factor when designing the bosses.
Tanks may be different though, because they are essentially blue DPS with a few extras.

They did state that healer DPS is not factored into most content, with the main exception being when attempting early clears and not geared at the intended ilvl for the encounter.

That also assumes everyone else is playing at a certain level of play. And let's be honest , not every player is going to be meeting the devs standard so every little bit from the healer helps.

[Taika]

I thought the encounter design team stated multiple times that healer DPS was not a factor when designing the bosses.
Tanks may be different though, because they are essentially blue DPS with a few extras.

You absolutely need significant healer and tank DPS in order to beat Savage floors, even when your DPS are playing perfectly. You can easily check this by checking the fight DPS requirement and then dividing it between the best DPS and tank players in the world and seeing if that would be enough (it's not). Whatever Yoshi P may have once said in an interview doesn't change the fact.

Edit: And even if it would be possible, it wouldn't be fair to demand 100% perfectly optimised DPS play from your DDs and tanks just so your healers could slack.

[Hash_Browns]

Thanks @Liam_Harper, pretty much as I thought.


I thought the encounter design team stated multiple times that healer DPS was not a factor when designing the bosses.
Tanks may be different though, because they are essentially blue DPS with a few extras.

It is currently not possible to clear E2S, E3S, or E4S without healer DPS.
E1S might be possible (It has a much lower DPS check, under 60k) if your DPS & Tanks are all almost perfect at playing the class they use.

EX content.. I'm not sure, obviously the DPS check is lower then savage tho.

[Barraind]

Im largely against parses due to the mentality they create. Tanks and healers judged on their DPS as opposed to how they play their main roles, while people complain dancer is a bad job because parsers dont show the impact that non-damage actions can contribute.

14 doesnt work like other games in that regard.

You dont have mostly encounters where healers have to spend 90% of their time healing, or requiring tanks to maximize mitigation. Theres no encounters where you're having non-stop raidwide damage combined with massive tank damage that require dedicated healers using every available gcd and ogcd to keep the raid alive. Theres no fights that require a tank to bunker and sacrifice offensive actions for defensive actions, largely because those dont exist in 14 outside paladin wings.

14's encounters are designed around obviously telegraphed abilities that necessitate one of: 1 button press from your tanks (or maybe 2!), moving out of a GIANT RED THING, or healers to use a healing ability some time in the next little bit before another ae happens. There is minimal tank auto-attack damage, theres a few fights where something is hitting the other tank, and theres a couple fights where you take more than usual splash damage. Outside of those, the only thing you can do as a healer 60-85% of the time is do damage. And if you're not optimizing that time TO do as much damage as possible, you're not doing it right.

Tanking and healing arent roles in 14 as much as they indicate the non-dps abilities you have to press sometimes.

does it suck that its like this? I think so. Does that mean you dont have to play that way? No.

[HyoMinPark]

New players are often intimidated and sometimes can get flamed for low damage even though they are just learning. Damage meters were seriously one of the primary reasons the WoW community was so terrible. Square Enix is right to ban them.

I keep seeing people say this... but they offer no proof that it actually occurs "as often" as they like to claim that it does. My proof is an anecdote, but I've encountered 1 instance of parser shaming in almost 4 years. And it wasn't in a dungeon - it was in Zurvan EX back when that was the relevant EX in HW.

[Melichoir]

I keep seeing people say this... but they offer no proof that it actually occurs "as often" as they like to claim that it does. My proof is an anecdote, but I've encountered 1 instance of parser shaming in almost 4 years. And it wasn't in a dungeon - it was in Zurvan EX back when that was the relevant EX in HW.

Im of the same mindset when it comes to the claims. I dont see the proof of it being so widespread. Even more so because I actually have low level alts that I just derp around with cause I like the story and sometimes want to feel that little bit of challange of doing a dungeon fresh with grey gear. In all cases, I havent seen someone flipping their crap in dungeons at new players over damage. Ive seen healers tell DPS or Tanks not to stand in the pancakes, and when they do, they stop healing them. Ive seen DPS get made at healers or Tanks for messing wtih the boss, Ive seen tanks tell DPS to stop being so gung ho and wait for them to get enmity. Seen all that, but havent seen the "Youre doing crappy DPS and you should feel bad" rage outs in DF for dungeons.

When I have seen people talk about damage, its in EX modes and its almost always after someone is being a smartass about something and thinking theyre hot stuff when theyre not. Even then, its a fairly rare occurrence.

As Ive mentioned here or in another thread with a similar issue, the problem is more likely a perception issue. A person does encounter said bad behavior as a one off, and goes to here or Reddit to vent or complain, only to be told by other people who have had similar one offs that its happened to them. They then get the perception that this is a common issue happening to a lot of people all the time, rather than isolated incidents that occur with little to no frequency. People only need to step back and think "How often have I personally seen it and how does that compare to how often I dont see it." and it quickly becomes clear that you probably encounter that level of stupid parser rage once every few hundred or more runs in content.

[Enla]

I keep seeing people say this... but they offer no proof that it actually occurs "as often" as they like to claim that it does. My proof is an anecdote, but I've encountered 1 instance of parser shaming in almost 4 years. And it wasn't in a dungeon - it was in Zurvan EX back when that was the relevant EX in HW.

I've only seen it happen once as well, and it was a hilarious incident where someone tried to shame me back in ARR for daring to help with rez duties as a SMN. When, you know, half the party was dead and the single healer was struggling during Garuda EX. Other than that? Haven't seen it happen. I have heard my friends comment on people's numbers in passing while in discord with them, but no one actually goes into the chat and shames people.

[Granyala]

They did state that healer DPS is not factored into most content, with the main exception being when attempting early clears and not geared at the intended ilvl for the encounter.
That also assumes everyone else is playing at a certain level of play. And let's be honest , not every player is going to be meeting the devs standard so every little bit from the healer helps.

Oh absolutely it helps, no argument from me.
I find it odd to read that @ 450ilvl it should be impossible, since that is at or even above the minimum item level stated by the duty finder.

It is currently not possible to clear E2S, E3S, or E4S without healer DPS.
E1S might be possible (It has a much lower DPS check, under 60k) if your DPS & Tanks are all almost perfect at playing the class they use.

55K for E1s to 71K for E2s if I remember correctly. Indeed my current group is still contemplating how to push that hard but eh mechanics come first, still lots of work to do on that front before worrying about DPS will be an issue.

I keep seeing people say this... but they offer no proof that it actually occurs "as often" as they like to claim that it does. My proof is an anecdote, but I've encountered 1 instance of parser shaming in almost 4 years. And it wasn't in a dungeon - it was in Zurvan EX back when that was the relevant EX in HW.

5yrs and I've never seen it. I do 90% of my dungeons with randoms.

Then again in 10 years of WoW I only encountered it a handful of times and usually the one doing the dissing got put into his place very quickly.

It's because the content is balanced for a higher item level than minimum requirement (and also to higher item level than what is available for players when the content is released) and even at that higher item level it's designed to require 90% optimal DPS play from DDs and tanks.

So basically what the duty finder says is completely misleading. Got it.
Makes sense that they balance this way, only way to achieve brutal difficulty for world firsters and maintaining gradual nerfs for latecomers.