So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[Granyala]

They did state that healer DPS is not factored into most content, with the main exception being when attempting early clears and not geared at the intended ilvl for the encounter.
That also assumes everyone else is playing at a certain level of play. And let's be honest , not every player is going to be meeting the devs standard so every little bit from the healer helps.

Oh absolutely it helps, no argument from me.
I find it odd to read that @ 450ilvl it should be impossible, since that is at or even above the minimum item level stated by the duty finder.

It is currently not possible to clear E2S, E3S, or E4S without healer DPS.
E1S might be possible (It has a much lower DPS check, under 60k) if your DPS & Tanks are all almost perfect at playing the class they use.

55K for E1s to 71K for E2s if I remember correctly. Indeed my current group is still contemplating how to push that hard but eh mechanics come first, still lots of work to do on that front before worrying about DPS will be an issue.

I keep seeing people say this... but they offer no proof that it actually occurs "as often" as they like to claim that it does. My proof is an anecdote, but I've encountered 1 instance of parser shaming in almost 4 years. And it wasn't in a dungeon - it was in Zurvan EX back when that was the relevant EX in HW.

5yrs and I've never seen it. I do 90% of my dungeons with randoms.

Then again in 10 years of WoW I only encountered it a handful of times and usually the one doing the dissing got put into his place very quickly.

It's because the content is balanced for a higher item level than minimum requirement (and also to higher item level than what is available for players when the content is released) and even at that higher item level it's designed to require 90% optimal DPS play from DDs and tanks.

So basically what the duty finder says is completely misleading. Got it.
Makes sense that they balance this way, only way to achieve brutal difficulty for world firsters and maintaining gradual nerfs for latecomers.

[Taika]

I find it odd to read that @ 450ilvl it should be impossible, since that is at or even above the minimum item level stated by the duty finder.

It's because the content is balanced for a higher item level than minimum requirement (and also to higher item level than what is available for players when the content is released) and even at that higher item level it's designed to require 90% optimal DPS play from DDs and tanks.

Edit: I managed to find the original quote from 2015 (source):

For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers.

[MPK]

They did state that healer DPS is not factored into most content, with the main exception being when attempting early clears and not geared at the intended ilvl for the encounter.

That also assumes everyone else is playing at a certain level of play. And let's be honest , not every player is going to be meeting the devs standard so every little bit from the healer helps.

It's because the content is balanced for a higher item level than minimum requirement (and also to higher item level than what is available for players when the content is released) and even at that higher item level it's designed to require 90% optimal DPS play from DDs and tanks.

Where's your source on that? Fights should be designed to be cleared at min ilvl not 100 ilevels above.

[Taika]

Where's your source on that? Fights should be designed to be cleared at min ilvl not 100 ilevels above.

I managed to find the original quote from 2015 (source):

For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers.

[MPK]

I managed to find the original quote from 2015 (source):

That's literally from 2015. For fights like ultimate there's no way to clear it without healer DPS and you can't outgear that. There's no way it's possible that the min ilevel is not the assumed level

[HyoMinPark]

That's literally from 2015. For fights like ultimate there's no way to clear it without healer DPS and you can't outgear that. There's no way it's possible that they intend the min ilevel to not be the assumed level

Ultimate is a completely different beast from Savage/Extremes—you will not clear Ultimate without your healers dealing damage, and they are balanced quite a bit differently than Savage, if I recall correctly.

That doesn’t change how true the 2015 statement could be about Savage, however; which is what they conversation is about. Not Ultimate.

[EaMett]

That's literally from 2015. For fights like ultimate there's no way to clear it without healer DPS and you can't outgear that. There's no way it's possible that the min ilevel is not the assumed level

Week 1 (in eden savage) if you took the absolute best max 100 percentile padded dps (before fflogs had rdps as default) and the same for tanks and added them you were still short by a lot for some encounters iirc.

Needless to say it was impossible to get 6 100 percentile parses at the same time since you can't pad everyone. So healer DPS was absolutely necessary and that source from 2015 still holds and is valid for savage tier too. Even today lets say all your dps pull 14k and your tanks 9k that's a total of 74k so you're still short for e4s. And lets be honest, how often are your dps at 14k.. and tanks at 9k? Good luck never clearing if your healers don't dps.

[MPK]

Week 1 (in eden savage) if you took the absolute best max 100 percentile padded dps (before fflogs had rdps as default) and the same for tanks and added them you were still short by a lot for some encounters iirc.

Needless to say it was impossible to get 6 100 percentile parses at the same time since you can't pad everyone. So healer DPS was absolutely necessary and that source from 2015 still holds and is valid for savage tier too. Even today lets say all your dps pull 14k and your tanks 9k that's a total of 74k so you're still short for e4s. And lets be honest, how often are your dps at 14k.. and tanks at 9k? Good luck never clearing if your healers don't dps.

Yeah it's asinine to even think that devs actually design savage content with 0 healer DPS in mind.

[Billythepancake]

Oh absolutely it helps, no argument from me.
I find it odd to read that @ 450ilvl it should be impossible, since that is at or even above the minimum item level stated by the duty finder.



55K for E1s to 71K for E2s if I remember correctly. Indeed my current group is still contemplating how to push that hard but eh mechanics come first, still lots of work to do on that front before worrying about DPS will be an issue.

For savage content, especially as you go deeper and deeper into the tier, healers need to dps no questions asked. Try clearing e4s with healers doing no damage. Unless you have some God tier tanks and dps that are all the absolute best at their jobs, you will wipe every time. Even then, why is it fair for them to bust their butts trying to clear but for healers to only put in less tha 40% effort?