Please no more Eureka!

[TwistedTea]

I really hope you simply forgot that capped tome gear is anything but mandatory to access endgame casual content, or else you just said that gear wasn't a reward, and then you have a much deeper problem since it's the only thing this game has to make your character evolve.

Again, that's false. Obtaining a full capped tome gear set will take much more subscription time than that, even before considering stuffing multiple jobs. And weekly cap is something made for casual, because it prevents them from falling too far behind.

Firstly,why do you keep shifting this discussion towards gearing? The main thrust of my argument in previous posts and this one is that, there is no recent 'casual' endgame content with the same scale/depth as Eureka in terms of engagement..

But for the sake of keeping this discussion coherent, tomestones should not be considered a reward, when your alternatives to gearing are buying gear (NPC/Crafted) or drops (dungeons,raids) at the casual level. If we are really being pedantic, maybe even stuff like Centurio seals.

Because if you want to use gearing as a factor for determining longevity/engagement of content, you're implying that people would stop doing Eureka, once they have their relics.

We both know this is not the case, as people still go into Eureka for rewards like glams,mounts,minions,etc.

No, you're not understanding the concept of casual.

We can go back and forth on this but these 2 would be considered the most common definitions of being a casual player:

1. In terms of skill. In FFXIV's case, I consider anyone who does not do current tier Extreme Primals/Savage Raids as casuals in terms of skill.

2. In terms of daily/weekly playtime.

You ask for a content that requires the same dedication from players that, by definition, don't give the game that dedication.If that's the kind of content you want, you're not a casual, you're simply someone who doesn't like Eureka.

I think most people will agree that as someone who does not do current tier Ex Primals/Savage raids, I'm a 'casual' in terms of skill.

You seem to be asserting that in order to be 'casual',you've to fit both definitions.

I'm a casual who does not like Eureka.

What dedication do the recent additions to casual content, require in terms of skill/playtime?

Less than 5 mins for doing Doman Enclave?

15 mins for doing Namazu quests daily?

30 mins for Custom Deliveries,weekly?

An hour or 2 for doing Hildebrand quests?

A few hours for doing Ivalice Raids in one play session?

A few hours for HOH?

Party games suite, Doman Mahjong Edition?

As, a casual, I'm asking for content which keeps me engaged for longer than a month.

[Reynhart]

Firstly,why do you keep shifting this discussion towards gearing?

Because gear is the main reward of the vast majority of battle content.

The main thrust of my argument in previous posts and this one is that, there is no recent 'casual' endgame content with the same scale/depth as Eureka in terms of engagement..

Again, what separates casuals from non-casual is "engagement". So asking for casual content with the same engagement is kind of backwards.

But for the sake of keeping this discussion coherent, tomestones should not be considered a reward, when your alternatives to gearing are buying gear (NPC/Crafted) or drops (dungeons,raids) at the casual level. If we are really being pedantic, maybe even stuff like Centurio seals.

Sorry, but for me, it's not coherent to consider capped tome gear not an endgame level reward just because it exists weaker gear, especially since it's complete bonus for anything casual.

Because if you want to use gearing as a factor for determining longevity/engagement of content, you're implying that people would stop doing Eureka, once they have their relics.

Completely stop, no, but if they finish the relics for all their jobs, most people will probably spend far less time in Eureka than they do now. And if the Relic wasn't there, there would definitely be less people playing there.

You seem to be asserting that in order to be 'casual',you've to fit both definitions.

Yes, if you play three hours each day, you're not a 'casual', even if you don't raid. That's why I separated non-casual as "raiders" and "grinders". Skill is not the only type of engagement, and Eureka is targetted at the other one, i.e, people who can spend longs stretches of playtime frequently. I've stopped raiding months ago and since I don't care that much about mounts, I've barely done EX Primals, but I'm definitely not a casual in regards to playtime, because I can easily do a full Eureka session each night.

As, a casual, I'm asking for content which keeps me engaged for longer than a month.

Problem is, if you discount gear as a reward, no content in this game would keep most people engaged longer than a month. And the content you ask for would still need to have gear as rewards, even if it has additionnal reward. But the way it would rewards would likely not be very different than gathering tomestones, if it wants to stay not-too-casual-unfriendly, and thus it would be redundant with dungeons and trials. If capped tome gear would disappear, then you would have room for gear from another content. IMO, it would be better for the game, because it still doesn't make much sense for me to obtain that powerful gear content so undemanding.

[TwistedTea]

Yes, if you play three hours each day, you're not a 'casual', even if you don't raid.

A year ago, I suggested something, like what you've stated above and the majority of people on these forums disagreed with me saying, that if a person has only 2-4 hours daily, that's below 'casual and that an MMO is not for that person.

Problem is, if you discount gear as a reward, no content in this game would keep most people engaged longer than a month...

So you're saying that without the relic, Eureka,with it's multiple zones,new battle systems,varied rewards, would not be able to keep people engaged for longer than a month?

[Reynhart]

A year ago, I suggested something, like what you've stated above and the majority of people on these forums disagreed with me saying, that if a person has only 2-4 hours daily, that's below 'casual and that an MMO is not for that person.

I don't have the same opinion as them, and, maybe some MMO are not for them, but regarding FFXIV, 2-4 hours daily give you more than enough time to burn through every PvE content, even if you're doing Savage.

So you're saying that without the relic, Eureka, with it's multiple zones, new battle systems, varied rewards, would not be able to keep people engaged for longer than a month?

Frankly, I doubt so, and, in fact, I've never stated otherwise...the thing is, without gear, any other content would also die in less than a month, except maybe PvP with its season system.

It's SE's problem when content that took 17-18 months(iirc) to develop

Not, it's not. Yoshi-P is completely free of putting ressources where he wants. Doing Eureka was important for him (He was thinking about it as early as 2.0), so he gave it the ressources. Besides, 18 months of timespan is not 18 months of full time development, and it didn't prevent any patch from being spot on on its schedule. And the participation numbers (However accurate they may be) give him satsifaction. I'm pretty sure in your work too, situations happen where you spend far more time than you should be on something unimportant, just because you want it a specific way. There could be a problem if everything else was heavily butchered as a counterpart, but losing 3 dungeons is really not that big of a deal, since people will simply do their roulette after the first time, and don't really care in what specific dungeon they will end.

Let's dive into supposition, now, shall we. Imagine that in ShadowBringers, they create a whole new content aside the Eureka-type one. This one would be cattered to casual players (according to your definiion). What reward structure do you think this new content should use, that wouldn't make any existing type of rewards irrelevant ?

[TwistedTea]

Let's dive into supposition, now, shall we. Imagine that in ShadowBringers, they create a whole new content aside the Eureka-type one. This one would be cattered to casual players (according to your definiion). What reward structure do you think this new content should use, that wouldn't make any existing type of rewards irrelevant ?

Glamour,mounts,minions,furniture,etc

Pretty much like POTD/HOH.

Diadem have a pegasus mount as a reward. Still dead.

Diadem also has/had an accessibility problem:

1. Get in through FC airship. This assumes you've an active enough FC, where the leaders/officers don't mind allocating airships for Diadem trips.

2. Public queue via Ishgard(which is dead on many servers,requires 8 people)

In this regard, Eureka is better than Diadem.

New dungeon, new casual raid/Primals (8/24 man), new items for canals of uznair, new things to gather or craft, new content for gold saucer, HoH and so on.

This will be the last time I address this. The main thrust of my argument is not that we are not getting casual content but that we are not getting casual content on the scale/depth of Eureka.

Less than 5 mins for doing Doman Enclave,weekly?

15 mins for doing Namazu quests daily?

30 mins for Custom Deliveries,weekly?

An hour or 2 for doing Hildebrand quests?

A few hours for doing Ivalice Raids in one play session?

A few hours for HOH?

Party games suite, Doman Mahjong Edition?

Anyone who thinks the additions to casual content at endgame is on the same scale/depth in terms of engagement, I'm sorry, we have nothing further to discuss.

What exactly do you want as "casual" content.

Using Eureka as a template,reduce the HP of mobs, reduce the reliance on chain killing and party play to be efficient at leveling.

Reward party play but do not punish solo play.

Someone mentioned,procedurally generated mobs. I think this would be interesting to experience but in a limited fashion.

Add in content for crafters/gatherers which can be done without combat if players choose not to engage in combat. For example, have DOH/DOLs build up the areas around the aetherytes using gathered/crafted materials from Eureka.

Now for some of those existing systems which can be incorporated into Eureka:

Reward exploration. Eureka is supposed to be an expedition right?

Add in those sightseeing vistas. Even in the short time that, I've spent in Eureka, some parts are gorgeous. It seems a waste that there's so little emphasis on exploration.

Leves

[RitsukoSonoda]

Using Eureka as a template,reduce the HP of mobs, reduce the reliance on chain killing and party play to be efficient at leveling.

Reward party play but do not punish solo play.

Care to elaborate more on this because its already as you asked in the bold part. Aside from NMs its entirely solo-able and due to the NM's being fates you can still get gold without a party many cases even when far below the fate level. Its not the fastest way to level but it works. However if everyone could level as fast in a party as they could solo then what would even be the point of making an exp party? Honestly to me it feels like you're asking for everything to be like leveling BLU on the overworld where you can easily go from 1-50 completely solo in a matter of hours.

As for the whole "there is no new casual content on the scale of eureka in stormblood" was there really any content on that scale in ARR and HW? One thing they did change was how frequently they added new 4 man duties due to the rate feeling like oversaturation.

Your main issue is you classify Eureka as non-causal content because you do not like it. Your personal rating of enjoyment of the content isn't a proper basis of this classification. Eureka is casual end game content in that everyone is free to do it at their own pace (or apparently not do it at all based on your earlier comments). A relic is not a requirement or entitlement or needed to progress in any aspect of the game. Eureka does not require premades and set strategies with the possible exception of BA however honestly unless the general quality of players has cratered since FFXI, I wouldn't see premades and elaborate strategies as a requirement on that either since even things like dynamis, limbus, etc were entirely doable with PuGs and almost nothing said in text chat other than normal basic conversation.


As I've said in other threads about various other things. If you don't like a certain content then don't do it. However do not complain about not being given things to do when the cause is your own choice and decision to not utilize everything given. There are certain activities in game I don't particularly care for. However if I'm looking for something to do and nothing else comes up I will still do it.

[Leanna]

Your main issue is you classify Eureka as non-causal content because you do not like it. Your personal rating of enjoyment of the content isn't a proper basis of this classification. Eureka is casual end game content in that everyone is free to do it at their own pace (or apparently not do it at all based on your earlier comments). A relic is not a requirement or entitlement or needed to progress in any aspect of the game. Eureka does not require premades and set strategies with the possible exception of BA however honestly unless the general quality of players has cratered since FFXI, I wouldn't see premades and elaborate strategies as a requirement on that either since even things like dynamis, limbus, etc were entirely doable with PuGs and almost nothing said in text chat other than normal basic conversation.


As I've said in other threads about various other things. If you don't like a certain content then don't do it. However do not complain about not being given things to do when the cause is your own choice and decision to not utilize everything given. There are certain activities in game I don't particularly care for. However if I'm looking for something to do and nothing else comes up I will still do it.

The problem isn't consider Eureka casual or not. Eureka is the worst of game design and simply bad content. Anemos was ok for casual players, and Pagos totally dropped make them drop. Because let's not forget what Eureka is, a sponge-mob grind, punishing and tedious, literally the only thing you do is kill the very same mobs for hours with little to no variation.

And about "However do not complain about not being given things to do when the cause is your own choice and decision to not utilize everything given.", Eureka needs more time, dedication and patience than any other content to get to the point.

"However if I'm looking for something to do and nothing else comes up I will still do it. "
Good for you if you are a conformist and you are happy with anything that is thrown at your face, people pay a sub and are in their right to demand quality content and not this lazy mess.

Devs should care about the community, listen to feedback and react, the worst community is a conformist one that doesn't care about anything.

As an example, you have Digital Extremes, devs of Warframe, they do listen to the community because they know that without community, they are over. And there is a lot of communication and respect between players and devs. SE either lives in a bubble where everything is pink and perfect, or refuse to listen.

Better content is beneficial for everyone, even for those who will conform with doing the same FATE 9000 times for a shiny stick.

[TwistedTea]

Your main issue is you classify Eureka as non-causal content because you do not like it. Your personal rating of enjoyment of the content isn't a proper basis of this classification. Eureka is casual end game content in that everyone is free to do it at their own pace (or apparently not do it at all based on your earlier comments)."

I did not classify Eureka as casual or non-casual content. Reynhart and the others have pointed out that Eureka was not meant for casuals.

As I've said in other threads about various other things. If you don't like a certain content then don't do it. However do not complain about not being given things to do when the cause is your own choice and decision to not utilize everything given. There are certain activities in game I don't particularly care for. However if I'm looking for something to do and nothing else comes up I will still do it.

When you've completed, nearly all the current casual endgame content, it's kinda hard to ignore Eureka . Especially when you have content that took 17-18 months to develop and was hyped to be the highlight of Stormblood.

Has any Ulitmate/Savage or PVP content taken this much dev resources/time?

At this point in time, I'm not even against Eureka existing for a niche audience or having FF/relevant related rewards tied to it.

But if devs are going to allocate such considerable resources to niche content, I would like to see casual content endgame for a broader audience with the same scale/depth of Eurkea, developed. Since that has not occurred, there will be feedback.

[TalithaSolarien]

Care to elaborate more on this because its already as you asked in the bold part. Aside from NMs its entirely solo-able and due to the NM's being fates you can still get gold without a party many cases even when far below the fate level. Its not the fastest way to level but it works. However if everyone could level as fast in a party as they could solo then what would even be the point of making an exp party? Honestly to me it feels like you're asking for everything to be like leveling BLU on the overworld where you can easily go from 1-50 completely solo in a matter of hours.

Soloable yes, but punishing nontheless. Yes you can technically try to kill/chain mobs on your level but this will take very, very long due to their nature as HP sponges. And you can't dare to move to the NM spawns or bunny drops as most way are littered with higer level mobs (esp. in later zones like Pyros).

The whole of Eureka was so clearly meant to be tackled by a group of players, this might have worked at the beginning when a lot of players are entering the zone at the same level (or in Anemos) but fails in the later zones.

[Laphael]

As, a casual, I'm asking for content which keeps me engaged for longer than a month.

You got that content, its called Eureka, you just don´t like it, thats not SE´s problem!