Please no more Eureka!

[Alleo]

Let me reverse the question : If you consider that there's no battle content for casual players, what are Expert dungeons, normal trials, normal raids, and alliance raids ?

I see this as the standard content we always get. The absolute minimum of an expansion (and we do get even less of that). Something that is there to get tomestones and maybe some glamour but not something that will keep people playing the game. (Only if you put some rewards behind it that have horrible RNG to get it)

In HW PotD was new casual content because it was something completely new to this game, you could casually work towards weapons and other rewards and people had 100 floors to clear with randoms. And on top of that you could try it solo, or with 1-3 other friends. Then on top of that people got their challenge with 100 extra floors. But it did not take away that you still got 100 floors that you could even do with randoms. And to make it even better you could use it to level up other jobs and to give these other jobs nice weapons. HoH is just another paint job of PotD thus I dont count it as new anymore and sadly they also took away so many floors for the casual playerbase. Just 30 floors which you can do in an hour if you are fast and 70 floors for those who wanted a challenge. Thus HoH has also turned a bit away from casual content.

The treasure maps are nice but they are not there to keep people playing longer. You dont level up your character, you dont get great weapons or stuff from it, its just simply there if you need a break from the rest of it and I like it but its nothing compared to huge Eureka.

Diadem also was something that I saw as casual. You could just queue up and then just do your thing. Be it gathering, or just fighting stuff. You did not even need to follow your group and you feared no consequences when you died. So in that way it was still quite casual but people did not find it to be fun long enough and on top of that the rewards you got from this also did not keep it alive. Thus casual content that was a failure because it did not really give the people something for their time.

Well what do we have truly new in SB? Well Eureka. But now suddenly after teasing us for months with this, its only niche content like Ultimate? But somehow the once casual relic weapon got also put in there? So do they want to say that relics are not anymore for casuals? So what is exactly for casuals anymore? What new content is there for the most of us? Why take one casual weapon away from us?

Eureka the thing that got more content than Ultimate together, but is somehow still niche. Did we ever had a content that was completely that isolated from normal content yet that big too? I mean so many landscapes just for it, the first 56 man public dungeon, a new fighting system too and its own leveling system with a death penalty. All this for niche content? All this for not even 20% of the JP playerbase, and even less than 10% for NA/EU(and we dont even have the numbers for the last one either)? Why? Where is the even more huge content for the rest of us?

Again I have no problem if we do have something like that but only if we have enough new battle stuff for the most of us. (I mean I dont raid but I am still happy that others got their Ultimates because at least they said that nothing was cut for that) I mean how much more different content could have been produced if they only did one Eureka and not four? If maybe it was just Anemos with logos actions and one public dungeon at the end and the rest would have been used for truly casual content? Why so much time and budget for such niche content? (And no I dont know how much it was in numbers but you just have to look at the size of the landscapes, new monsters, new actions and more and see that this is quite the work)

You're joking right? For relics in Heavensward we didn't get new content we got the privilege of running all the old content a zillion times for tomes.

Why are you using that quote for relics? I asked Reynhart where the casual content is in SB if Eureka was always planned as only niche content. Eureka is battle content and for me more than just a way to get relics (but for someone that wants the relics the only way to get it) thus this question had nothing to do with relic weapons and more with content itself.

This topic is about the whole Eureka and not about the relics itself, which are just one part of it.

[Reynhart]

I see this as the standard content we always get. The absolute minimum of an expansion (and we do get even less of that). Something that is there to get tomestones and maybe some glamour but not something that will keep people playing the game. (Only if you put some rewards behind it that have horrible RNG to get it)

Standard content is casual content. Gearing one job with basic tome gear requires 14 weeks of subscription for each even patch, and upgrading that gear requires at least 10 weeks of subscription for each odd patch. If a casual players actually want to stay closer to max ilvl, he has plenty of reason to come back into the game each week, especially if he has more than one job at level 70.

Did we ever had a content that was completely that isolated from normal content yet that big too?

Yes, we did, it's called PvP.

Where is the even more huge content for the rest of us?

Why should people that, by definition, have less time to play should have a more huge content ?

[Alleo]

Standard content is casual content. Gearing one job with basic tome gear requires 14 weeks of subscription for each even patch, and upgrading that gear requires at least 10 weeks of subscription for each odd patch. If a casual players actually want to stay closer to max ilvl, he has plenty of reason to come back into the game each week, especially if he has more than one job at level 70.

Yes, we did, it's called PvP.

Why should people that, by definition, have less time to play should have a more huge content ?

Again standard content is standard content. You wont keep a lot of the casual players playing if you only have a couple of dungeons, trials and the two raids. They are nice, they are necessary but they are also done fast. Which is already a problem with each new patch because people are often finishing it fast and if you are not a raider or like Eureka (which as you said is only for a niche anyway) then you have nothing else to grind for thus nothing else to sub for.

You are right PVP is a huge thing but honestly still niche (and kinda a bit dead for quite some maps) and not that isolated like Eureka. You can level up your characters there (which was probably a change done to get more people to play it) and work towards some rewards but in the end its still niche content.

About more huge content for players with less time: Because like PotD even if you dont have much time you can work towards your goal slowly, without having to grind it hardcore at the start of a patch and still get something out of it all the time. Also because the standard content we have dont hold up for long. If you dont want to grind if for some glamours you might just do your dailies and be done with that content. So what now? Here it would be perfect to have casual content that you can do on your own time.

No you're talking about new battle content and where is it as if Eureka stole it away from you in Stormblood but didn't do so in Heavensward? Isn't that your implication? The point is we got lots of new battle content is Eureka but you choose not to do it. We got nothing new in Stormblood other than recycled content in Heavensward and ARR.

Your attempt to keep trying to push relic in Stormblood as niche while ignoring it's not more niche in Stormblood than it was in Heavensward and appears to be actually more popular. Here we got a lot of new content for relic where we didn't get that in HW. Sorry if that new content doesn't meet with your approval.

The only thing where I talked about the relic was a few pages back when someone said that we are never happy as customers and when someone used Eureka numbers to make a point about it. Otherwise I am talking about battle content itself which Eureka is, but as numbers show and as Reynhard tries to say, its somehow niche content thus not for the casual players.

In HW we got new battle content, it was called PoTD and then we got two versions of Diadem. Sadly both Diadems failed but they were still quite casual content. The only thing that is truly new in SB is Eureka which, if we can Yoshidas quote for real, was always meant to just be something niche. So where is the true casual battle content?

[Laphael]

About more huge content for players with less time: Because like PotD even if you dont have much time you can work towards your goal slowly, without having to grind it hardcore at the start of a patch and still get something out of it all the time. Also because the standard content we have dont hold up for long. If you dont want to grind if for some glamours you might just do your dailies and be done with that content. So what now? Here it would be perfect to have casual content that you can do on your own time.

You can work on Eureka very slowly. No need to rush at all. From Anemos to Hydatos there is always a full instance going.
You could just log in, join an instance, do some fates for 30-60 mins, or do some challenge log and log out again.
No need to rush or no-life it at all. You sound like you never really tried the content you are hating on.

[Reynhart]

You wont keep a lot of the casual players playing if you only have a couple of dungeons, trials and the two raids. They are nice, they are necessary but they are also done fast.

No, that's exactly why you will keep casual players subbed. Because they can login, spend half an hour on something, and log out if they want. And the various weekly cap will make you stay sub if you want a full set of gear. If you need something to spend more actual playtime, then maybe you're not as casual as you think.

About more huge content for players with less time: Because like PotD even if you dont have much time you can work towards your goal slowly, without having to grind it hardcore at the start of a patch and still get something out of it all the time.

Again, that's what tomestones are for. That's your way for slowly but surely get good gear, on par with both non-casual content. And something that requires you to come back each week, but requires very little actual playtime, that's the definition of casual content.

A little question then : You seem to have enough playtime available so that capping tomestones and obtaining weekly loot is too fast, you don't like raiding, and you don't like Eureka. So, what kind of content would actually please you ?

[TwistedTea]

A little question then : You seem to have enough playtime available so that capping tomestones and obtaining weekly loot is too fast, you don't like raiding, and you don't like Eureka. So, what kind of content would actually please you ?

Alleo,seems to be in the same boat as me.

I stand by Alleo's statements that standard content like dungeons,should not be counted as endgame 'casual' content because they are accessible by everyone. Because, if you take things like dungeons to be 'casual' content, might as well consider the MSQ, casual content. FFXIV's core combat content gameplay loop revolves around instanced dungeons.

Also, PVP,while it can be done casually for farming marks and leveling up, it's designed for people who enjoy PVP.

So I'll maintain that if Eureka is not meant to be 'casual' content, the disparate tidbits which are supposed to be 'casual' endgame content are not on the same scale or have the ability to keep players engaged like Eureka.

Eureka is a quarter/mini-expansion's worth of content if you take into account just the multiple maps/zones that it has. Then when you take the remaining content of Eureka into account, I think it's safe to assume, Eureka has a mini-expansion's worth of content.

There's a continuity in Eureka, which none of the disparate bits of content, which are supposed to be the 'casual' endgame,have.

While people who enjoy Eurkea get to explore entire new zones, storylines,etc, what do 'casuals' get?

Oh here's some Doman Mahjong,a few new treasure maps and raids, to keep you entertained for a few days...

As a 'casual', I would have liked something like Eureka,which is not so reliant on chain killing, where the mobs are more than giant pools of HP and not so reliant on having a party to progress effciently. By all means,reward party play but do not punish solo play.

Maybe, throw in some crafting/gathering content which is separate from the combat content.

[Reynhart]

I stand by Alleo's statements that standard content like dungeons,should not be counted as endgame 'casual' content because they are accessible by everyone.

It's strange because, from your statement, it seems you're assuming that casual and hardcore players simply do different content. That's not really how MMOs work. Hardcore players don't do different content than casual, they do more.

Because, if you take things like dungeons to be 'casual' content, might as well consider the MSQ, casual content.

I don't count the MSQ because, in a sense, it's not supposed to be "optionnal" content. If we only look at "optionnal" content, any casual content is something that doesn't require a high skill level, doesn't require heavy playtime (more specifically, long sessions of playtime), and use very little RNG to decide how it rewards you. And, by the most basic definition, endgame content is any content that you do at max level and that give endgame level rewards.

So I'll maintain that if Eureka is not meant to be 'casual' content, the disparate tidbits which are supposed to be 'casual' endgame content are not on the same scale or have the ability to keep players engaged like Eureka.

Problem is, this is kind of false. First, the scale of Eureka is closely tied to the time you're supposed to spend there. And you can't expect a casual content to require the same playtime as a non-casual content, because that's the main metric that separates the two. And when it comes to the length of engagement, the various weekly caps make it so that, if you have all the playtime you want, you'll actually finish gearing in Eureka earlier than what you would have by Expert dungeons, normal raids or alliance raids.

There's a continuity in Eureka, which none of the disparate bits of content, which are supposed to be the 'casual' endgame,have.

Omega has its own continuity, Ivalice has its own continuity and the Four Lords has its own continuity. You don't need a single continuity to cover every casual content, because it would only makes the requirements to each tier harsher.

While people who enjoy Eurkea get to explore entire new zones, storylines,etc, what do 'casuals' get?

Again, they got the content I've already mentionned. It seems that you brush that off because they didn't receive new content in 4.55, but casual content was not usually released mid-patch in the past either. From that pov, raiders and grinders didn't receive anything in 4.5. Or simply because raiders/grinders were also experimenting the 4.5 content, but again, casual content is not something that only casuals do, it's something than everyone do.

By all means,reward party play but do not punish solo play.

Eureka does not "punish" solo play (Not since the challenge log was created, at least), it only makes the progression slower, which is understandable since this is an MMO.

The problem I see with a new casual content is what rewards you would gain. Tomestones is the most casual form of rewards, since it's completely separated from RNG, can be done little by little, and allow you to buy endgame gear. And you already have tons of ways to gain tomestones with very little playtime.

[Ilan]

Yup, as much as I can understand people can be bored and don't want to make effort and I did it sometime too for my sanity but if your not here for the pull its your mistake and you have to assume your loss.

Yeah if i'm for any reason are not spawning NM's i'm not pulling or complaining.

snip.

Eureka doesn't punish you if you are standing around and don't spawn NM's or just spawn low NM's. Otherwhise running around solo in eureka is not the best idea because you can delevel pretty fast if you end up in the wrong instance.

[TwistedTea]

The problem I see with a new casual content is what rewards you would gain. Tomestones is the most casual form of rewards, since it's completely separated from RNG, can be done little by little, and allow you to buy endgame gear. And you already have tons of ways to gain tomestones with very little playtime.

Tomestones cannot be considered rewards, when they are a necessity to upgrade your gear at endgame, unless we resort to only buying gear and using drops all the time.

I think you're not understanding scale and continuity.

Even if you were to combine all the significant 'casual' content which has been added from patch 4.25:The introduction of Eureka Anemos to patch 4.55 Eureka Hydatos, they are like shallow puddles(Hildebrand,Four Lords,Alliance Raids,new treasure map,etc,etc) in terms of time and engagement,compared to the scale of Eureka (New maps/zones,new battle system,etc)

The longest any of these types of 'casual' content can keep players engaged is about a month. This has more to do with daily/weekly caps. For example, Doman Enclave,Namazu Beast Tribe,Custom Deliveries.

The remaining like Hildebrand,Four Lords,Alliance Raids, Treasure Map,etc can be completed from less than 30 mins to a few hours(Doing all of the Four Lords,Alliance Raids in a single session)

There's nothing wrong with having shallow puddles of 'casual' content,for example the Gold Saucer. But ideally, there should be both shallow puddles of 'casual' content and casual content with depth similar to Eureka.

[Alleo]

A little question then : You seem to have enough playtime available so that capping tomestones and obtaining weekly loot is too fast, you don't like raiding, and you don't like Eureka. So, what kind of content would actually please you ?

Well if a casual player is simply someone that barely plays the game at all then yes the standard stuff would be enough. But there are enough definitions out there that say that its not about the time but about how "deep" they go into this. Someone could play a big amount of time but only care for the easier content and that is still a casual player (for me and for some sites) while you might not play something that much but dedicate your time when you play to do the harder stuff thus you are not casual anymore.

So even if you just play two hours per day you might run out of battle content because not everyone wants to just run a dungeon again and again thus why they created things like Diadem or even PotD. To give people something new to do. Eureka looked like it would be something for the majority too yet suddenly it was always just meant to be niche content?

About me: Right now I mostly craft and sell these items to earn gil. I barely cap my tomestones because I see no reason to why I should do that. I have enough gear to do any new dungeon easily and since I dont raid I dont need better ones anyway. In the past I also did one relic weapon in the down time, simply because I could do it at my own pace and because it would give me a nice weapon to look at. Any dungeons I do, I run for either glamour, mats or to exchange the gear to get mats. I did like PotD and still do this. Either by trying it solo (but that was kinda destroyed by all the DCs on Chaos) or by farming it with a friend. I probably will farm HoH with him too in the future but HoH is still nothing but a copy of PotD with some small changes thus why I dont count it as completely new.

If the relic was in interesting content or maybe like the old one (but with changes to the really disliked parts) then I would also do that. But I find Eureka to be boring. I am not a fan of fates and Eureka is just fates and monster killing. Maybe if it had more things to do other than that I would do it but as if its now I dont. I see no reason why I should level up my character again and even all the rewards behind it are not enough to make me do it till the end.

So I want content which I can do on my own time. Where I can challenge myself if I want to do that or where I can have some nice hours with my friend farming it. I dont want it something where I am either forced to search ingame for a group or where I need huge amount of hours to maybe get something. (I dislike huge layers of RNG) Eureka cant be truly done solo, it cant even be done with just another friend, especially if that one is lower or higher with the level. You either join the train or hope that you reach the boss fates fast enough. And since I am not someone that sits back and afk, it was quite stressfull too. I just dont want to mindlessly kill the same monsters again and again. On top of that Eureka has the loss of exp and its random if you get any good rewards too.

Alleo,seems to be in the same boat as me.

.

Thank you, your post is exactly what I meant but I have a huge problem of writing something down short and to the point x)'.

Its just strange how somehow Eureka is niche content yet at the same time how big that niche content is. Nothing huge like that was ever introduced in one expansion. Even PVP with its many maps only got them slowly over time and over two expansions. Yet somehow we should accept that Eureka with new systems, new maps and the relic quest line was never intended to be the endgame content for majority of the players? That the devs would be fine if even the JP playerbase, that seemingly does everything as long as its in the game, has only around 18% at lvl cap in Pyros? At a time where there is no new Ultimate, no new other casual long term content available?