Please no more Eureka!

[TwistedTea]

The problem I see with a new casual content is what rewards you would gain. Tomestones is the most casual form of rewards, since it's completely separated from RNG, can be done little by little, and allow you to buy endgame gear. And you already have tons of ways to gain tomestones with very little playtime.

Tomestones cannot be considered rewards, when they are a necessity to upgrade your gear at endgame, unless we resort to only buying gear and using drops all the time.

I think you're not understanding scale and continuity.

Even if you were to combine all the significant 'casual' content which has been added from patch 4.25:The introduction of Eureka Anemos to patch 4.55 Eureka Hydatos, they are like shallow puddles(Hildebrand,Four Lords,Alliance Raids,new treasure map,etc,etc) in terms of time and engagement,compared to the scale of Eureka (New maps/zones,new battle system,etc)

The longest any of these types of 'casual' content can keep players engaged is about a month. This has more to do with daily/weekly caps. For example, Doman Enclave,Namazu Beast Tribe,Custom Deliveries.

The remaining like Hildebrand,Four Lords,Alliance Raids, Treasure Map,etc can be completed from less than 30 mins to a few hours(Doing all of the Four Lords,Alliance Raids in a single session)

There's nothing wrong with having shallow puddles of 'casual' content,for example the Gold Saucer. But ideally, there should be both shallow puddles of 'casual' content and casual content with depth similar to Eureka.

[Reynhart]

Tomestones cannot be considered rewards, when they are a necessity to upgrade your gear at endgame

I really hope you simply forgot that capped tome gear is anything but mandatory to access endgame casual content, or else you just said that gear wasn't a reward, and then you have a much deeper problem since it's the only thing this game has to make your character evolve. On a sidenote, though, even if we're talking about uncapped tome gear, it's still not a necessity (That's one thing SB did better than HW), as dungeon gear is enough to unlock access to 8-man raid, and 8-man raid give access to 24-man raid.

I think you're not understanding scale and continuity.

No, you're not understanding the concept of casual. You ask for a content that requires the same dedication from players that, by definition, don't give the game that dedication. If that's the kind of content you want, you're not a casual, you're simply someone who doesn't like Eureka. And you still have a problem because capped tome gear covers a concept of endgame reward structure from content that doesn't deserve it, which could make a new content "redundant".

The longest any of these types of 'casual' content can keep players engaged is about a month. This has more to do with daily/weekly caps.

Again, that's false. Obtaining a full capped tome gear set will take much more subscription time than that, even before considering stuffing multiple jobs. And weekly cap is something made for casual, because it prevents them from falling too far behind.

[TwistedTea]

I really hope you simply forgot that capped tome gear is anything but mandatory to access endgame casual content, or else you just said that gear wasn't a reward, and then you have a much deeper problem since it's the only thing this game has to make your character evolve.

Again, that's false. Obtaining a full capped tome gear set will take much more subscription time than that, even before considering stuffing multiple jobs. And weekly cap is something made for casual, because it prevents them from falling too far behind.

Firstly,why do you keep shifting this discussion towards gearing? The main thrust of my argument in previous posts and this one is that, there is no recent 'casual' endgame content with the same scale/depth as Eureka in terms of engagement..

But for the sake of keeping this discussion coherent, tomestones should not be considered a reward, when your alternatives to gearing are buying gear (NPC/Crafted) or drops (dungeons,raids) at the casual level. If we are really being pedantic, maybe even stuff like Centurio seals.

Because if you want to use gearing as a factor for determining longevity/engagement of content, you're implying that people would stop doing Eureka, once they have their relics.

We both know this is not the case, as people still go into Eureka for rewards like glams,mounts,minions,etc.

No, you're not understanding the concept of casual.

We can go back and forth on this but these 2 would be considered the most common definitions of being a casual player:

1. In terms of skill. In FFXIV's case, I consider anyone who does not do current tier Extreme Primals/Savage Raids as casuals in terms of skill.

2. In terms of daily/weekly playtime.

You ask for a content that requires the same dedication from players that, by definition, don't give the game that dedication.If that's the kind of content you want, you're not a casual, you're simply someone who doesn't like Eureka.

I think most people will agree that as someone who does not do current tier Ex Primals/Savage raids, I'm a 'casual' in terms of skill.

You seem to be asserting that in order to be 'casual',you've to fit both definitions.

I'm a casual who does not like Eureka.

What dedication do the recent additions to casual content, require in terms of skill/playtime?

Less than 5 mins for doing Doman Enclave?

15 mins for doing Namazu quests daily?

30 mins for Custom Deliveries,weekly?

An hour or 2 for doing Hildebrand quests?

A few hours for doing Ivalice Raids in one play session?

A few hours for HOH?

Party games suite, Doman Mahjong Edition?

As, a casual, I'm asking for content which keeps me engaged for longer than a month.

[Reynhart]

Firstly,why do you keep shifting this discussion towards gearing?

Because gear is the main reward of the vast majority of battle content.

The main thrust of my argument in previous posts and this one is that, there is no recent 'casual' endgame content with the same scale/depth as Eureka in terms of engagement..

Again, what separates casuals from non-casual is "engagement". So asking for casual content with the same engagement is kind of backwards.

But for the sake of keeping this discussion coherent, tomestones should not be considered a reward, when your alternatives to gearing are buying gear (NPC/Crafted) or drops (dungeons,raids) at the casual level. If we are really being pedantic, maybe even stuff like Centurio seals.

Sorry, but for me, it's not coherent to consider capped tome gear not an endgame level reward just because it exists weaker gear, especially since it's complete bonus for anything casual.

Because if you want to use gearing as a factor for determining longevity/engagement of content, you're implying that people would stop doing Eureka, once they have their relics.

Completely stop, no, but if they finish the relics for all their jobs, most people will probably spend far less time in Eureka than they do now. And if the Relic wasn't there, there would definitely be less people playing there.

You seem to be asserting that in order to be 'casual',you've to fit both definitions.

Yes, if you play three hours each day, you're not a 'casual', even if you don't raid. That's why I separated non-casual as "raiders" and "grinders". Skill is not the only type of engagement, and Eureka is targetted at the other one, i.e, people who can spend longs stretches of playtime frequently. I've stopped raiding months ago and since I don't care that much about mounts, I've barely done EX Primals, but I'm definitely not a casual in regards to playtime, because I can easily do a full Eureka session each night.

As, a casual, I'm asking for content which keeps me engaged for longer than a month.

Problem is, if you discount gear as a reward, no content in this game would keep most people engaged longer than a month. And the content you ask for would still need to have gear as rewards, even if it has additionnal reward. But the way it would rewards would likely not be very different than gathering tomestones, if it wants to stay not-too-casual-unfriendly, and thus it would be redundant with dungeons and trials. If capped tome gear would disappear, then you would have room for gear from another content. IMO, it would be better for the game, because it still doesn't make much sense for me to obtain that powerful gear content so undemanding.

[TwistedTea]

Yes, if you play three hours each day, you're not a 'casual', even if you don't raid.

A year ago, I suggested something, like what you've stated above and the majority of people on these forums disagreed with me saying, that if a person has only 2-4 hours daily, that's below 'casual and that an MMO is not for that person.

Problem is, if you discount gear as a reward, no content in this game would keep most people engaged longer than a month...

So you're saying that without the relic, Eureka,with it's multiple zones,new battle systems,varied rewards, would not be able to keep people engaged for longer than a month?

[Reynhart]

A year ago, I suggested something, like what you've stated above and the majority of people on these forums disagreed with me saying, that if a person has only 2-4 hours daily, that's below 'casual and that an MMO is not for that person.

I don't have the same opinion as them, and, maybe some MMO are not for them, but regarding FFXIV, 2-4 hours daily give you more than enough time to burn through every PvE content, even if you're doing Savage.

So you're saying that without the relic, Eureka, with it's multiple zones, new battle systems, varied rewards, would not be able to keep people engaged for longer than a month?

Frankly, I doubt so, and, in fact, I've never stated otherwise...the thing is, without gear, any other content would also die in less than a month, except maybe PvP with its season system.

It's SE's problem when content that took 17-18 months(iirc) to develop

Not, it's not. Yoshi-P is completely free of putting ressources where he wants. Doing Eureka was important for him (He was thinking about it as early as 2.0), so he gave it the ressources. Besides, 18 months of timespan is not 18 months of full time development, and it didn't prevent any patch from being spot on on its schedule. And the participation numbers (However accurate they may be) give him satsifaction. I'm pretty sure in your work too, situations happen where you spend far more time than you should be on something unimportant, just because you want it a specific way. There could be a problem if everything else was heavily butchered as a counterpart, but losing 3 dungeons is really not that big of a deal, since people will simply do their roulette after the first time, and don't really care in what specific dungeon they will end.

Let's dive into supposition, now, shall we. Imagine that in ShadowBringers, they create a whole new content aside the Eureka-type one. This one would be cattered to casual players (according to your definiion). What reward structure do you think this new content should use, that wouldn't make any existing type of rewards irrelevant ?

[TwistedTea]

Let's dive into supposition, now, shall we. Imagine that in ShadowBringers, they create a whole new content aside the Eureka-type one. This one would be cattered to casual players (according to your definiion). What reward structure do you think this new content should use, that wouldn't make any existing type of rewards irrelevant ?

Glamour,mounts,minions,furniture,etc

Pretty much like POTD/HOH.

Diadem have a pegasus mount as a reward. Still dead.

Diadem also has/had an accessibility problem:

1. Get in through FC airship. This assumes you've an active enough FC, where the leaders/officers don't mind allocating airships for Diadem trips.

2. Public queue via Ishgard(which is dead on many servers,requires 8 people)

In this regard, Eureka is better than Diadem.

New dungeon, new casual raid/Primals (8/24 man), new items for canals of uznair, new things to gather or craft, new content for gold saucer, HoH and so on.

This will be the last time I address this. The main thrust of my argument is not that we are not getting casual content but that we are not getting casual content on the scale/depth of Eureka.

Less than 5 mins for doing Doman Enclave,weekly?

15 mins for doing Namazu quests daily?

30 mins for Custom Deliveries,weekly?

An hour or 2 for doing Hildebrand quests?

A few hours for doing Ivalice Raids in one play session?

A few hours for HOH?

Party games suite, Doman Mahjong Edition?

Anyone who thinks the additions to casual content at endgame is on the same scale/depth in terms of engagement, I'm sorry, we have nothing further to discuss.

What exactly do you want as "casual" content.

Using Eureka as a template,reduce the HP of mobs, reduce the reliance on chain killing and party play to be efficient at leveling.

Reward party play but do not punish solo play.

Someone mentioned,procedurally generated mobs. I think this would be interesting to experience but in a limited fashion.

Add in content for crafters/gatherers which can be done without combat if players choose not to engage in combat. For example, have DOH/DOLs build up the areas around the aetherytes using gathered/crafted materials from Eureka.

Now for some of those existing systems which can be incorporated into Eureka:

Reward exploration. Eureka is supposed to be an expedition right?

Add in those sightseeing vistas. Even in the short time that, I've spent in Eureka, some parts are gorgeous. It seems a waste that there's so little emphasis on exploration.

Leves

[Laphael]

As, a casual, I'm asking for content which keeps me engaged for longer than a month.

You got that content, its called Eureka, you just don´t like it, thats not SE´s problem!

[TwistedTea]

You got that content, its called Eureka, you just don´t like it, thats not SE´s problem!

According to Reynhart and his signature,Eureka was not designed to be casual content:

I usually compare FFXIV with a theme park, but the Forbidden Land of Eureka won’t be a place where everyone would want to go. For example, there are people who don’t want to go to horror houses because they don’t see the point in getting scared on purpose. For example, on a date, the boyfriend might want to invite the girlfriend to go the horror house, but the girlfriend just doesn’t seem to find it fun. In other words, it’s not like everyone wants to go to the horror house, but there are people who just love the adrenalin rush they get from it. Think of Eureka as something like that.

Also,if Eureka is meant to be casual content, it's SE's problem when content that took 17-18 months(iirc) to develop, has these kind of numbers according to the Lucky Bancho 2019 census:

and the number of active players that have reached the Pyros level cap of 50 is:
18,6% JP
5,8% NA
7,3% EU

Of course, there are people who will point out that Eureka is more successful than previous relics:

And in NA it's 8.58% for a content that's out more than two years and 5.8% for Pyros.

Which does not take into account that Eureka is not just about the relic. Or that the rewards, Eureka offers might have something to do with that 5.8%

Putting Eureka's numbers aside, people will also point to niche content like Savage raids/PVP.

From a utilitarian perspective, it would make more sense for SE to develop engaging content with depth for the casual playerbase, which is the bigger audience rather than the shallow puddles of endgame 'casual' content that we have now.

Of course, such reasoning will not fly in a themepark MMO.

But if SE can devote considerable resources to producing engaging niche content while not also providing similar casual endgame content, then of course, you'll have people like me providing feedback.