Please no more Eureka!

[Reynhart]

You wont keep a lot of the casual players playing if you only have a couple of dungeons, trials and the two raids. They are nice, they are necessary but they are also done fast.

No, that's exactly why you will keep casual players subbed. Because they can login, spend half an hour on something, and log out if they want. And the various weekly cap will make you stay sub if you want a full set of gear. If you need something to spend more actual playtime, then maybe you're not as casual as you think.

About more huge content for players with less time: Because like PotD even if you dont have much time you can work towards your goal slowly, without having to grind it hardcore at the start of a patch and still get something out of it all the time.

Again, that's what tomestones are for. That's your way for slowly but surely get good gear, on par with both non-casual content. And something that requires you to come back each week, but requires very little actual playtime, that's the definition of casual content.

A little question then : You seem to have enough playtime available so that capping tomestones and obtaining weekly loot is too fast, you don't like raiding, and you don't like Eureka. So, what kind of content would actually please you ?

[TwistedTea]

A little question then : You seem to have enough playtime available so that capping tomestones and obtaining weekly loot is too fast, you don't like raiding, and you don't like Eureka. So, what kind of content would actually please you ?

Alleo,seems to be in the same boat as me.

I stand by Alleo's statements that standard content like dungeons,should not be counted as endgame 'casual' content because they are accessible by everyone. Because, if you take things like dungeons to be 'casual' content, might as well consider the MSQ, casual content. FFXIV's core combat content gameplay loop revolves around instanced dungeons.

Also, PVP,while it can be done casually for farming marks and leveling up, it's designed for people who enjoy PVP.

So I'll maintain that if Eureka is not meant to be 'casual' content, the disparate tidbits which are supposed to be 'casual' endgame content are not on the same scale or have the ability to keep players engaged like Eureka.

Eureka is a quarter/mini-expansion's worth of content if you take into account just the multiple maps/zones that it has. Then when you take the remaining content of Eureka into account, I think it's safe to assume, Eureka has a mini-expansion's worth of content.

There's a continuity in Eureka, which none of the disparate bits of content, which are supposed to be the 'casual' endgame,have.

While people who enjoy Eurkea get to explore entire new zones, storylines,etc, what do 'casuals' get?

Oh here's some Doman Mahjong,a few new treasure maps and raids, to keep you entertained for a few days...

As a 'casual', I would have liked something like Eureka,which is not so reliant on chain killing, where the mobs are more than giant pools of HP and not so reliant on having a party to progress effciently. By all means,reward party play but do not punish solo play.

Maybe, throw in some crafting/gathering content which is separate from the combat content.

[Reynhart]

I stand by Alleo's statements that standard content like dungeons,should not be counted as endgame 'casual' content because they are accessible by everyone.

It's strange because, from your statement, it seems you're assuming that casual and hardcore players simply do different content. That's not really how MMOs work. Hardcore players don't do different content than casual, they do more.

Because, if you take things like dungeons to be 'casual' content, might as well consider the MSQ, casual content.

I don't count the MSQ because, in a sense, it's not supposed to be "optionnal" content. If we only look at "optionnal" content, any casual content is something that doesn't require a high skill level, doesn't require heavy playtime (more specifically, long sessions of playtime), and use very little RNG to decide how it rewards you. And, by the most basic definition, endgame content is any content that you do at max level and that give endgame level rewards.

So I'll maintain that if Eureka is not meant to be 'casual' content, the disparate tidbits which are supposed to be 'casual' endgame content are not on the same scale or have the ability to keep players engaged like Eureka.

Problem is, this is kind of false. First, the scale of Eureka is closely tied to the time you're supposed to spend there. And you can't expect a casual content to require the same playtime as a non-casual content, because that's the main metric that separates the two. And when it comes to the length of engagement, the various weekly caps make it so that, if you have all the playtime you want, you'll actually finish gearing in Eureka earlier than what you would have by Expert dungeons, normal raids or alliance raids.

There's a continuity in Eureka, which none of the disparate bits of content, which are supposed to be the 'casual' endgame,have.

Omega has its own continuity, Ivalice has its own continuity and the Four Lords has its own continuity. You don't need a single continuity to cover every casual content, because it would only makes the requirements to each tier harsher.

While people who enjoy Eurkea get to explore entire new zones, storylines,etc, what do 'casuals' get?

Again, they got the content I've already mentionned. It seems that you brush that off because they didn't receive new content in 4.55, but casual content was not usually released mid-patch in the past either. From that pov, raiders and grinders didn't receive anything in 4.5. Or simply because raiders/grinders were also experimenting the 4.5 content, but again, casual content is not something that only casuals do, it's something than everyone do.

By all means,reward party play but do not punish solo play.

Eureka does not "punish" solo play (Not since the challenge log was created, at least), it only makes the progression slower, which is understandable since this is an MMO.

The problem I see with a new casual content is what rewards you would gain. Tomestones is the most casual form of rewards, since it's completely separated from RNG, can be done little by little, and allow you to buy endgame gear. And you already have tons of ways to gain tomestones with very little playtime.

[Ilan]

Yup, as much as I can understand people can be bored and don't want to make effort and I did it sometime too for my sanity but if your not here for the pull its your mistake and you have to assume your loss.

Yeah if i'm for any reason are not spawning NM's i'm not pulling or complaining.

snip.

Eureka doesn't punish you if you are standing around and don't spawn NM's or just spawn low NM's. Otherwhise running around solo in eureka is not the best idea because you can delevel pretty fast if you end up in the wrong instance.

[TwistedTea]

The problem I see with a new casual content is what rewards you would gain. Tomestones is the most casual form of rewards, since it's completely separated from RNG, can be done little by little, and allow you to buy endgame gear. And you already have tons of ways to gain tomestones with very little playtime.

Tomestones cannot be considered rewards, when they are a necessity to upgrade your gear at endgame, unless we resort to only buying gear and using drops all the time.

I think you're not understanding scale and continuity.

Even if you were to combine all the significant 'casual' content which has been added from patch 4.25:The introduction of Eureka Anemos to patch 4.55 Eureka Hydatos, they are like shallow puddles(Hildebrand,Four Lords,Alliance Raids,new treasure map,etc,etc) in terms of time and engagement,compared to the scale of Eureka (New maps/zones,new battle system,etc)

The longest any of these types of 'casual' content can keep players engaged is about a month. This has more to do with daily/weekly caps. For example, Doman Enclave,Namazu Beast Tribe,Custom Deliveries.

The remaining like Hildebrand,Four Lords,Alliance Raids, Treasure Map,etc can be completed from less than 30 mins to a few hours(Doing all of the Four Lords,Alliance Raids in a single session)

There's nothing wrong with having shallow puddles of 'casual' content,for example the Gold Saucer. But ideally, there should be both shallow puddles of 'casual' content and casual content with depth similar to Eureka.

[Reynhart]

Tomestones cannot be considered rewards, when they are a necessity to upgrade your gear at endgame

I really hope you simply forgot that capped tome gear is anything but mandatory to access endgame casual content, or else you just said that gear wasn't a reward, and then you have a much deeper problem since it's the only thing this game has to make your character evolve. On a sidenote, though, even if we're talking about uncapped tome gear, it's still not a necessity (That's one thing SB did better than HW), as dungeon gear is enough to unlock access to 8-man raid, and 8-man raid give access to 24-man raid.

I think you're not understanding scale and continuity.

No, you're not understanding the concept of casual. You ask for a content that requires the same dedication from players that, by definition, don't give the game that dedication. If that's the kind of content you want, you're not a casual, you're simply someone who doesn't like Eureka. And you still have a problem because capped tome gear covers a concept of endgame reward structure from content that doesn't deserve it, which could make a new content "redundant".

The longest any of these types of 'casual' content can keep players engaged is about a month. This has more to do with daily/weekly caps.

Again, that's false. Obtaining a full capped tome gear set will take much more subscription time than that, even before considering stuffing multiple jobs. And weekly cap is something made for casual, because it prevents them from falling too far behind.

[TwistedTea]

I really hope you simply forgot that capped tome gear is anything but mandatory to access endgame casual content, or else you just said that gear wasn't a reward, and then you have a much deeper problem since it's the only thing this game has to make your character evolve.

Again, that's false. Obtaining a full capped tome gear set will take much more subscription time than that, even before considering stuffing multiple jobs. And weekly cap is something made for casual, because it prevents them from falling too far behind.

Firstly,why do you keep shifting this discussion towards gearing? The main thrust of my argument in previous posts and this one is that, there is no recent 'casual' endgame content with the same scale/depth as Eureka in terms of engagement..

But for the sake of keeping this discussion coherent, tomestones should not be considered a reward, when your alternatives to gearing are buying gear (NPC/Crafted) or drops (dungeons,raids) at the casual level. If we are really being pedantic, maybe even stuff like Centurio seals.

Because if you want to use gearing as a factor for determining longevity/engagement of content, you're implying that people would stop doing Eureka, once they have their relics.

We both know this is not the case, as people still go into Eureka for rewards like glams,mounts,minions,etc.

No, you're not understanding the concept of casual.

We can go back and forth on this but these 2 would be considered the most common definitions of being a casual player:

1. In terms of skill. In FFXIV's case, I consider anyone who does not do current tier Extreme Primals/Savage Raids as casuals in terms of skill.

2. In terms of daily/weekly playtime.

You ask for a content that requires the same dedication from players that, by definition, don't give the game that dedication.If that's the kind of content you want, you're not a casual, you're simply someone who doesn't like Eureka.

I think most people will agree that as someone who does not do current tier Ex Primals/Savage raids, I'm a 'casual' in terms of skill.

You seem to be asserting that in order to be 'casual',you've to fit both definitions.

I'm a casual who does not like Eureka.

What dedication do the recent additions to casual content, require in terms of skill/playtime?

Less than 5 mins for doing Doman Enclave?

15 mins for doing Namazu quests daily?

30 mins for Custom Deliveries,weekly?

An hour or 2 for doing Hildebrand quests?

A few hours for doing Ivalice Raids in one play session?

A few hours for HOH?

Party games suite, Doman Mahjong Edition?

As, a casual, I'm asking for content which keeps me engaged for longer than a month.

[Reynhart]

Firstly,why do you keep shifting this discussion towards gearing?

Because gear is the main reward of the vast majority of battle content.

The main thrust of my argument in previous posts and this one is that, there is no recent 'casual' endgame content with the same scale/depth as Eureka in terms of engagement..

Again, what separates casuals from non-casual is "engagement". So asking for casual content with the same engagement is kind of backwards.

But for the sake of keeping this discussion coherent, tomestones should not be considered a reward, when your alternatives to gearing are buying gear (NPC/Crafted) or drops (dungeons,raids) at the casual level. If we are really being pedantic, maybe even stuff like Centurio seals.

Sorry, but for me, it's not coherent to consider capped tome gear not an endgame level reward just because it exists weaker gear, especially since it's complete bonus for anything casual.

Because if you want to use gearing as a factor for determining longevity/engagement of content, you're implying that people would stop doing Eureka, once they have their relics.

Completely stop, no, but if they finish the relics for all their jobs, most people will probably spend far less time in Eureka than they do now. And if the Relic wasn't there, there would definitely be less people playing there.

You seem to be asserting that in order to be 'casual',you've to fit both definitions.

Yes, if you play three hours each day, you're not a 'casual', even if you don't raid. That's why I separated non-casual as "raiders" and "grinders". Skill is not the only type of engagement, and Eureka is targetted at the other one, i.e, people who can spend longs stretches of playtime frequently. I've stopped raiding months ago and since I don't care that much about mounts, I've barely done EX Primals, but I'm definitely not a casual in regards to playtime, because I can easily do a full Eureka session each night.

As, a casual, I'm asking for content which keeps me engaged for longer than a month.

Problem is, if you discount gear as a reward, no content in this game would keep most people engaged longer than a month. And the content you ask for would still need to have gear as rewards, even if it has additionnal reward. But the way it would rewards would likely not be very different than gathering tomestones, if it wants to stay not-too-casual-unfriendly, and thus it would be redundant with dungeons and trials. If capped tome gear would disappear, then you would have room for gear from another content. IMO, it would be better for the game, because it still doesn't make much sense for me to obtain that powerful gear content so undemanding.

[Laphael]

As, a casual, I'm asking for content which keeps me engaged for longer than a month.

You got that content, its called Eureka, you just don´t like it, thats not SE´s problem!

[Alleo]

A little question then : You seem to have enough playtime available so that capping tomestones and obtaining weekly loot is too fast, you don't like raiding, and you don't like Eureka. So, what kind of content would actually please you ?

Well if a casual player is simply someone that barely plays the game at all then yes the standard stuff would be enough. But there are enough definitions out there that say that its not about the time but about how "deep" they go into this. Someone could play a big amount of time but only care for the easier content and that is still a casual player (for me and for some sites) while you might not play something that much but dedicate your time when you play to do the harder stuff thus you are not casual anymore.

So even if you just play two hours per day you might run out of battle content because not everyone wants to just run a dungeon again and again thus why they created things like Diadem or even PotD. To give people something new to do. Eureka looked like it would be something for the majority too yet suddenly it was always just meant to be niche content?

About me: Right now I mostly craft and sell these items to earn gil. I barely cap my tomestones because I see no reason to why I should do that. I have enough gear to do any new dungeon easily and since I dont raid I dont need better ones anyway. In the past I also did one relic weapon in the down time, simply because I could do it at my own pace and because it would give me a nice weapon to look at. Any dungeons I do, I run for either glamour, mats or to exchange the gear to get mats. I did like PotD and still do this. Either by trying it solo (but that was kinda destroyed by all the DCs on Chaos) or by farming it with a friend. I probably will farm HoH with him too in the future but HoH is still nothing but a copy of PotD with some small changes thus why I dont count it as completely new.

If the relic was in interesting content or maybe like the old one (but with changes to the really disliked parts) then I would also do that. But I find Eureka to be boring. I am not a fan of fates and Eureka is just fates and monster killing. Maybe if it had more things to do other than that I would do it but as if its now I dont. I see no reason why I should level up my character again and even all the rewards behind it are not enough to make me do it till the end.

So I want content which I can do on my own time. Where I can challenge myself if I want to do that or where I can have some nice hours with my friend farming it. I dont want it something where I am either forced to search ingame for a group or where I need huge amount of hours to maybe get something. (I dislike huge layers of RNG) Eureka cant be truly done solo, it cant even be done with just another friend, especially if that one is lower or higher with the level. You either join the train or hope that you reach the boss fates fast enough. And since I am not someone that sits back and afk, it was quite stressfull too. I just dont want to mindlessly kill the same monsters again and again. On top of that Eureka has the loss of exp and its random if you get any good rewards too.

Alleo,seems to be in the same boat as me.

.

Thank you, your post is exactly what I meant but I have a huge problem of writing something down short and to the point x)'.

Its just strange how somehow Eureka is niche content yet at the same time how big that niche content is. Nothing huge like that was ever introduced in one expansion. Even PVP with its many maps only got them slowly over time and over two expansions. Yet somehow we should accept that Eureka with new systems, new maps and the relic quest line was never intended to be the endgame content for majority of the players? That the devs would be fine if even the JP playerbase, that seemingly does everything as long as its in the game, has only around 18% at lvl cap in Pyros? At a time where there is no new Ultimate, no new other casual long term content available?