Where is the "never before seen content"?

[JunseiKei]

Perform is a perfect example of poor appeasement. It's only intended for an incredibly niche audience, released in a patch where the entirety of its content was also niche. Casual players had one dungeon, Rabanastre and a beast tribe as content intended to last through the duration of 4.1. That is abysmal, hence why you saw frequent complaints of boredom. 4.3 offers similarly less, though at least Heaven on High attracts a far less niche audience. Unfortunately, it's more than a little lackluster before you reach the higher floors. A general content focus is fine, in theory, but Stormblood as a whole simply has very little to offer unless you like virtually everything. And if we go by the unofficial censuses, the numbers demonstrate a clear lack of interest. Stormblood is seeing 3.1 levels of disinterest, which is staggering if one considers the state of the game back then. While these numbers are by no means definitive, it remains disconcerting all the same, especially as WoW enters is latest expansion. Meanwhile, FFXIV is likely to undergo a significant drought unless something surprising occurs in 4.5.



Contrary popular belief, Gordias Savage did not destroy the game, though it did severely impact the raid scene. Let's review what released between 3.0 to 3.2

Gordias
Thordan EX
Four dungeons
Void Ark
Lords of Verminion
Diadem

This spanned over eight months, the longest delay between updates since FFXIV's relaunch. Both major content updates were essentially DoA, thus casual players had literally nothing new to keep themselves occupied. Meanwhile, the devs openly acknowledged they undertoned Void Ark and severely overtuned Goridas Savage. Bear in mind, unlike any other tier ever released, Gordias was gear locked, making it impossible to clear unless tome weapons were available. Even Ultimate didn't impose such a restriction. Had Gordias been properly tuned, it never would have been the monster it became. Furthermore, the game lacked key components which heavily impacted raid progression: cooldown resets and cross world PF. The former forced players to either pull with necessary abilities still on CD while the latter made recruitment pools swallow at best. Hence why Gilgamesh ballooned.

It's entirely disingenuous to fault Gordias for the destroy of 3.1.

Again, the game is designed around being able to take breaks. It's fine if that doesn't appeal to everyone, too, but as it's been said, "Go and play other games or have a social life. FFXIV will be here when you're ready to come back."

The only other game I can think of with as regular of content additions in place is WoW. Any games I've stuck with for any amount of time take far longer - the second one I can name is Warframe, and that still takes months (longer than FFXIV for less content). This is a large part of where my confusion of the demands being made are coming from. The amount of "content" and "time" needed are not large nor short (to their respective parts), hence why I often wonder if people understand the genre of game and if they're sure they're playing the correct type of game for what is being asked. Also, again, for a generalist MMO; things like Overwatch and the like can't be compared; they're completely different types of games with different focuses.

We can ask for more stuff, but we'd need to also be specific about it. People asked for something like XI's deep dungeons; we got it. People asked for more XI-like content and we got.... Eureka. More skilled players asked for harder fights. We got ultimates. Everything is pretty niche because it's fulfilling requests from people while still doling out things that theoretically please everyone (dungeons?).

Never said Gordias Savage destroyed the game - considering we're currently playing it. I said it left a bad taste in MY mouth and that's why I don't particularly hold Heavensward in good regard. (Also, the bold text in specific is SE doing exactly what players asked. Again, I did not at all imply that this 'destroyed' the game, but when even those top raiders say yeah, this isn't fun, it doesn't exactly come off as the best request they fulfilled.) The proof is right there. You also lumped things together while leaving out other things. Normal raids, savage raids, story, story, story, side quests (like Hildibrand), FC stuff (airships), Bismarck, Ravana, Sephirot? and stuff I don't really want to go and look up for specifics. More things were added than what is being presented. Again, just because it doesn't appeal to you, or even a large amount of people, doesn't discredit its existence or the possibility of it being enjoy by others. Niche or not.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Again, the game is designed around being able to take breaks. It's fine if that doesn't appeal to everyone, too, but as it's been said, "Go and play other games or have a social life. FFXIV will be here when you're ready to come back."

The only other game I can think of with as regular of content additions in place is WoW. Any games I've stuck with for any amount of time take far longer - the second one I can name is Warframe, and that still takes months (longer than FFXIV for less content).

We can ask for more stuff, but we'd need to also be specific about it. People asked for something like XI's deep dungeons; we got it. People asked for more XI-like content and we got.... Eureka. More skilled players asked for harder fights. We got ultimates. Everything is pretty niche because it's fulfilling requests from people while still doling out things that theoretically please everyone (dungeons?).

Never said Gordias Savage destroyed the game - considering we're currently playing it. I said it left a bad taste in MY mouth and that's why I don't particularly hold Heavensward in good regard. (Also, the bold text in specific is SE doing exactly what players asked. Again, I did not at all imply that this 'destroyed' the game, but when even those top raiders say yeah, this isn't fun, it doesn't exactly come off as the best request they fulfilled.) The proof is right there. You also lumped things together while leaving out other things. Normal raids, savage raids, story, story, story, side quests (like Hildibrand), FC stuff (airships) and stuff I don't really want to go and look up for specifics. More things were added than what is being presented. Again, just because it doesn't appeal to you, or even a large amount of people, doesn't discredit its existence or the possibility of it being enjoy by others. Niche or not.

A MMO should not all but require players to take consist breaks, especially not after major patches. Even at a gradual pace, most people will have completed all 4.3 had to offer at release long before HoH finally arrived. And while Yoshida may prattle on about breaks, SE employs systems purposely designed against taking breaks. Do you not think it suspect these staggered release schedule coincide with a month's sub? Or that should you own a house, you're locked into a renewal every 45 days. Eventually, players stop coming back. We're seeing that in the aforementioned census as Stormblood boosts an active playerbase roughly at what 3.1 had. Considering the game is supposed in a better state, with a higher budget, that isn't a good sign.

Dungeons haven't pleased people for a long time. The whole reason we lost one is because they openly acknowledged how "boring" the community perceived them. Fulfilling requests doesn't mean that should be all that's offered. If the majority of your playerbase is bored, niche content like Rival Wings or even Ultimate are not good focal points. Granted, at least Ultimate can justify itself through Twitch viewership. PvP has been on life support for the better portion of three years yet they still keep trying to keep alive the delusional of an E-Sports theme.

You specifically said Gordias was dark times—with no mention of it only referencing yourself. Be that as it may, story is not long term content because it's a "one and done" activity. Even if someone took four months to complete everything, they were greeted with very little substance at endgame. There's a reason 3.1 is considered the worst patch this game has ever released. Furthermore, I did include both raids hence why I said "Gordias." Normal mode takes less than an hour. And Hildibrand was delayed for The Scholasticate initially.

[JunseiKei]

A MMO should not all but require players to take consist breaks, especially not after major patches.

There's no MMO that can keep up with their players.

SE employs systems purposely designed against taking breaks. Do you not think it suspect these staggered release schedule coincide with a month's sub?

I wasn't aware we got a new patch every 30 days.

Or that should you own a house, you're locked into a renewal every 45 days.

Yeah, I will agree that sucks. However, until they link that directly to the Mogstation (will probably raise pitchforks from players) and make houses instanced, I can't see a means to force open world houses to become vacant.

Or add in something like BDO's housing system (in that every house, every player can buy. By default you enter your own home, but you can click on the entrance and visit another player's home).

Considering the game is supposed in a better state, with a higher budget, that isn't a good sign.

I'd argue the game's story has only gotten better. This may, or may not, be because of a supposed increase in budget.

Dungeons haven't pleased people for a long time. The whole reason we lost one is because they openly acknowledged how "boring" the community perceived them..

Part of the reason. The full statement was along the lines of, 'we're dropping down to one dungeon because we know they're boring and the extra time and resources will allow us to create more content.'

Also, despite your statement, that dungeons haven't pleased people and even SE acknowledges they are boring, yet people seem to want to go on and on about losing one dungeon per patch. That's why I'm confused when people complain about dungeons - did you actually want it or are you looking for a means to complain?

Eventually, players stop coming back.

That is unavoidable, even if you sped up the content cycle or managed to create more content. People leave for reasons; some because the game can't keep up. Some for more personal reasons (families, money, you name it). There are players that literally do savage raids and ultimates, then unsub until the next batch because they have no interest in anything else. No matter what content you place in, unless it's something of similar interest to them, you won't get those players back. You can't please everyone 100% of the time; if they decide to never came back, that's their choice.

If the majority of your playerbase is bored, niche content like Rival Wings or even Ultimate are not good focal points.

People like you and I do not have access to actual numbers; SE does. We can't make any actual arguments on these grounds - we can make educated guesses at best, and even then, those are probably hideously inadequate.

PvP has been on life support for the better portion of three years yet they still keep trying to keep alive the delusional of an E-Sports theme.

There are people that genuinely enjoy PvPing. Once upon a time ago, I was in such crowd. It comes with the generalist MMO - you make something for everyone. At least SE does stages and stuff to be enjoyed and on occasion, I've dropped in on the streams to watch fights.

By life support, I'm assuming you mean because it's not a massive focus, much like the Gold Saucer and all of its activities. Despite it being enjoyed by a number of people.

You specifically said Gordias was dark times—with no mention of it only referencing yourself.

Then allow me to clear that up: I was speaking strictly from my point of view.

There's a reason 3.1 is considered the worst patch this game has ever released.

By whom? Obviously, players, but what amount of players? What are your numbers? What are your sources? What is the opinion of all patches to compare against? Do you have numbers across all regions? Is there a comparison to each region showing how they felt about 3.1?

Furthermore, I did include both raids hence why I said "Gordias." Normal mode takes less than an hour. And Hildibrand was delayed for The Scholasticate initially.

Had you been another business trying to sell me a product (like a rival MMO), simply saying something like "Gordias" makes it look like one thing. In reality, it was two different things that please two different crowds of players, then tried to sell me on a hook like 'we have double the content!' while separating your own content if you had a normal and savage version. (Just saying, how it comes across to the reader or whoever else is reading our conversation, changes their perception of things. Probably me just being nitpicky, but that's why I said what I said.)

Yeah, that's details I didn't really want to delve into because I honestly didn't recall when Hildibrand started and I don't feel like digging up each 3.0 to 3.2 patch notes to see what changes were made as well as content made available. I do know you left out three primals, not counting Thordan EX since you did mention that fight. My main point here being you selectively left out information.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

There's no MMO that can keep up with their players.

I never insinuated otherwise. There shouldn't be one where a major patch releases then sits around for six weeks despite the content released being nowhere near long enough to maintain a general interest for that length of time. The whole reason why MMOs, FFXIV included, employ grinds are to combat boredom. Stormblood's relic grind has been relegated to one month before 4.4. Not only does it not exactly last long, the weapon itself is entirely meaningless for progression.

I wasn't aware we got a new patch every 30 days.

Don't be obtuse. You know as well as I these abrupt staggered releases are an attempt to keep subscribed. I won't necessarily fault Yoshida for that though.

I'd argue the game's story has only gotten better. This may, or may not, be because of a supposed increase in budget.

And yet the general consensus is Heavenswards' story was largely superior. I will grant you side story quests have been somewhat better, but again, those are one and done.

That is unavoidable, even if you sped up the content cycle or managed to create more content. People leave for reasons; some because the game can't keep up. Some for more personal reasons (families, money, you name it). There are players that literally do savage raids and ultimates, then unsub until the next batch because they have no interest in anything else. No matter what content you place in, unless it's something of similar interest to them, you won't get those players back. You can't please everyone 100% of the time; if they decide to never came back, that's their choice.

And those same "raid loggers" existed in Heavensward yet the active player numbers did not dip nearly as aggressively as they have in Stormblood. You're dismissing virtually ever potential slight against the game as "well that just happens." It didn't in Heavenswards. Perhaps that's a sign FFXIV should follow WoW's resurgence with Legion come the next expansion and not simply sit on all these complaints. Which is why feedback and criticism is crucial. Hand-waving everything aside results in a repeat of the same mistakes—ones that won't be as easily forgiven a second time. If Stormblood's numbers are suffering now and nothing changes; just a purple coat of purple atop red. Those same numbers could decline even further.

People like you and I do not have access to actual numbers; SE does. We can't make any actual arguments on these grounds - we can make educated guesses at best, and even then, those are probably hideously inadequate.

Indeed, nor did I claim otherwise. That doesn't mean those estimations are entirely inaccurate or meaningless either. Considering complaints about lackluster content and little innovation are far more commonplace nowadays than two years prior, we can reasonably assume a decent portion of players aren't thrilled by some of the decisions made for Stormblood. It's not definitive, of course, but it shouldn't be ignored either.

There are people that genuinely enjoy PvPing. Once upon a time ago, I was in such crowd. It comes with the generalist MMO - you make something for everyone. At least SE does stages and stuff to be enjoyed and on occasion, I've dropped in on the streams to watch fights.

By life support, I'm assuming you mean because it's not a massive focus, much like the Gold Saucer and all of its activities. Despite it being enjoyed by a number of people.

No, I mean that it dies within weeks. Outside of the Garo event and Stormblood's initial launch, PvP activity has been staggeringly low. So much so the devs were embarrassed on their own Live Stream with an hour long queue. Rival Wings completely dropped off within two weeks, and how struggles to see queues despite people actively advertising on reddit. There really is no way to argue PvP has not been a failure in numerous ways. Being a generalist MMO does not mean you want content so decidedly unpopular it sees little activity.

By whom? Obviously, players, but what amount of players? What are your numbers? What are your sources? What is the opinion of all patches to compare against? Do you have numbers across all regions? Is there a comparison to each region showing how they felt about 3.1?

Virtually ever census conducted cites 3.1 as FFXIV's worst patch. Of course, it's largely subjective, but considering the overwhelming dislike of Diadem and LoV, Gordias Savage destroying the raid scene and the developers opting not to delay a patch like that again, it's not difficult to surmise 3.1 was not well received.

Had you been another business trying to sell me a product (like a rival MMO), simply saying something like "Gordias" makes it look like one thing. In reality, it was two different things that please two different crowds of players, then tried to sell me on a hook like 'we have double the content!' while separating your own content if you had a normal and savage version. (Just saying, how it comes across to the reader or whoever else is reading our conversation, changes their perception of things. Probably me just being nitpicky, but that's why I said what I said.)

Did I really need to add in brackets (Normal and Savage). I am neither a business nor am I selling you a product. I'm speaking to someone acutely aware of the terms. So yes, that is needlessly nitpicky. Regardless, I do admit to having forgotten to list Ravana and Bismarck, though the overall point remains. Given how poorly the major content releases were received outside 3.0 proper, there remained very little to do for an extended point of time as 3.1 had been delayed longer than their usual schedule.

[Berethos]

Don't be obtuse. You know as well as I these abrupt staggered releases are an attempt to keep subscribed. I won't necessarily fault Yoshida for that though.

No more or less than putting gear progression behind an unhealthy wall of RNG and grind, like a certain other MMO has done the past couple of expansions. Not sure why it's worth bringing up when all MMOs look to find ways to convince players to stick around between major patch windows.

And while Yoshida may prattle on about breaks, SE employs systems purposely designed against taking breaks. Do you not think it suspect these staggered release schedule coincide with a month's sub? Or that should you own a house, you're locked into a renewal every 45 days.

That particular system was asked for by players, if you happen to remember that housing demolition wasn't added until 3.1 after months of being a requested feature as a response to the lack of housing availability precisely because the system as originally and purposefully employed by SE did not lock you into renewing to keep your house.

Kind of interesting that a detail like that keeps being forgotten when criticisms about SE's "locking into subscriptions" practices are brought up.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

No more or less than putting gear progression behind an unhealthy wall of RNG and grind, like a certain other MMO has done the past couple of expansions. Not sure why it's worth bringing up when all MMOs look to find ways to convince players to stick around between major patch windows.

At least I would be doing something in a certain other MMO whereas this one I essentially log off. That isn't to say WoW's system is perfect, far from it. But that doesn't make the staggered releases any less annoying. I would hope FFXIV aspires to better than mindless RNG grind...

That particular system was asked for by players, if you happen to remember that housing demolition wasn't added until 3.1 after months of being a requested feature as a response to the lack of housing availability precisely because the system as originally and purposefully employed by SE did not lock you into renewing to keep your house.

Kind of interesting that a detail like that keeps being forgotten when criticisms about SE's "locking into subscriptions" practices are brought up.

Another detail forgotten is when people asked for that system, they wanted longer than 45 days and to have it tied into their subscription. That way, in the event they were away for whatever reason, they weren't required to have someone log into their account and step inside their house, which breaks the ToS. Regardless, they can have their demolition system, just stop prattling on about taking breaks then because it's nonsense.

Perhaps a better solution is to actually fix their abysmal housing system.

[Remedi]

At least I would be doing something in a certain other MMO whereas this one I essentially log off. That isn't to say WoW's system is perfect, far from it. But that doesn't make the staggered releases any less annoying. I would hope FFXIV aspires to better than mindless RNG grind...

Ye, but Wow too has a staggered release too and sometimes the staggered releases nullifies your grind before completely

Example: When mythic+ were released there was a ilvl cap on titanforging which was then increased when raid released

Also I will say that the staggered content in wow is worse because the main dish of wow is the raid content and they stagger the release for no real reason.

If anything Wow taught SE that they can get away with staggered release

[Bourne_Endeavor]

If anything Wow taught SE that they can get away with staggered release

I'm not convinced FFXIV can. While unofficial censuses cannot be looked at as definitive, they're still telling. Stormblood numbers have dipped to Gordias levels, which is really bad. And I'd attribute it directly to the staggered releases of content and how niche much of its been. FFXIV just doesn't have the playerbase to float like WoW can.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm not convinced FFXIV can. While unofficial censuses cannot be looked at as definitive, they're still telling. Stormblood numbers have dipped to Gordias levels, which is really bad. And I'd attribute it directly to the staggered releases of content and how niche much of its been. FFXIV just doesn't have the playerbase to float like WoW can.

This.

Moreover, XIV doesn't have the constant, floating content that WoW has. Raids and the weekly cache are the only things that can't be grinded as much as the player likes in WoW. And in WoW, PvP is actually very much a thing. That's dozens of hours more repeatable content (that many find enjoyable in itself) that actually helps character power.

I'd say it comes with the noticeable downside of requiring far longer to maintain an alt, but... compared to XIV -- if one were to make the 'mistake' of putting all gear types on a single character, thus cutting your gearing potential into sevenths between NIN, DRG, MNK/SAM, Caster, Healer, Tank, Ranged -- it's still far more lenient, and suffers from none of the unintuitive competition between one's own jobs, let alone in an irretrievable manner over time-gated progression.

[Remedi]

I'm not convinced FFXIV can. While unofficial censuses cannot be looked at as definitive, they're still telling. Stormblood numbers have dipped to Gordias levels, which is really bad. And I'd attribute it directly to the staggered releases of content and how niche much of its been. FFXIV just doesn't have the playerbase to float like WoW can.

Well on my defense maybe I should have used words differently I meant that they've shown that it works on their game and they thought it would work on here especially since ppl complains that later in the patch there's nothing to do afaik we've been getting monthly updates this time around so we can't really say that nobody said anything about the previous release.
But overall I agree that FFXIV doesn't gave the ability to fly like wow and that's why I'm always saying that we should consider what wow does with a grain of salt.

However as far player counts go it has been extremely erratic in behavior for all of stormblood with spikes in player counts in odd moments as such I would say we need more investigations before having any remarkable conclusions on it
I don't get how we got about 200k in the lul before 4.1 (this was right before 4.1 dropped and after the 2 counts in SB btw) Or the 90k spike between the release of eureka and 4.3, so far I've got no answer on why it might've happened perhaps I need to contact the guy keeping the list again