Please Reconsider MSQ Changes

[Talraen]

For everyone suggesting cutscenes be skippable if all 8 players have cleared the content, let me ask you something: if they did that, and you queued, and you got Praetorium with unskippable cutscenes, what would you do?

Because the smart thing to do would be to immediately leave the instance, take the half-hour penalty, queue again at that point, and hope cutscenes were skippable. If they were, you'd get the same bonus in less overall time.

That's why they won't do that. It gives you an incentive to queue speculatively, which hurts new players even more than the old system did.

[Jijifli]

For everyone suggesting cutscenes be skippable if all 8 players have cleared the content, let me ask you something: if they did that, and you queued, and you got Praetorium with unskippable cutscenes, what would you do?

Because the smart thing to do would be to immediately leave the instance, take the half-hour penalty, queue again at that point, and hope cutscenes were skippable. If they were, you'd get the same bonus in less overall time.

That's why they won't do that. It gives you an incentive to queue speculatively, which hurts new players even more than the old system did.

2 Hour Penalty for dropping MS Roulette if there's a new player.

Suddenly it's faster to deal with it.

[Vhailor]

Preface: I want to start off by saying that I fully understand the plight new players faced in the MSQ dungeons prior to Update 4.2. I share SE's desire to address this, as should all players.

However, I feel that SE's efforts in Update 4.2 were foolish, poorly designed, and ill-timed. I'll offer a series of observations to support my position, and a set of recommendations going forward.

Observations: Having played both Castrum Meridianum and the Praetorium since these changes have been made, here are some observations.

• Forced cutscenes help improve the experience for new players, but they don't solve the problem entirely. The poor design of both Castrum and Praetorium leaves new players in a decidedly poor position, despite the changes.
  
  In Castrum, the turret sequences and general enemy-avoidance strategies are still prone to confusing new players. Because prior dungeons never featured any similar mechanics, new players are still often left wondering what's going on.
  
  In Praetorium, there are a number of issues. The teleporters early in the dungeon require each individual player to click on them, and are often used from within a pack of monsters to speed up progress. Elevators often require players to be on them when triggered a la Copperbell, a mechanic that is used sporadically and frankly wasn't very well thought-out. Finally, the Magitek armour authorization is something each individual player needs to obtain, a point left ambiguous by the dungeon. All of these poorly-designed mechanisms are prone to leaving new players confused, dead, or lost as they have to backtrack (in the case of the Magitek armour).
  
  
• The forced cutscenes introduced a new variable that wasn't controlled for, and can mess up people with slower hardware. Players on slower machines can exit cutscenes several seconds behind those on faster computers. In many cases - Nero in Praetorium being the likeliest that I saw - this can lead to people getting locked out of the battlefield if other players start in early. This is a new problem, as players could manually skip cutscenes beforehand in order to minimize the effect of slower hardware (now, slower FPS adds small delays throughout the length of the CS, not just for the load times coming out of it).
  
  
• Queue times are up, and veteran players continue to drop out. Roughly 1/3 of each party I was in verbally indicated they'd never again queue for this content. Others probably felt similarly, but didn't voice their thoughts. I know I won't queue for it again unless I happen to need Poetics tomestones quite desperately, nor will my girlfriend who I ran these observational runs with. This is a problem that will get worse, not better, unless rewards reach a point of being stupidly generous, at which point a different set of problems will be introduced.

Recommendations / TL; DR: The MSQ changes SE implemented in Update 4.2 did not effectively remedy the MSQ issues facing new players.

The changes did resolve the problem of people being pressured to skip cutscenes and being lost or verbally abused if they didn't. Nothing was done to address the other real sources of confusion and anxiety for new players. For this imperfect solution, a high cost was paid in terms of queue times, and a couple of hours was taken from everyone leveling an alt.

What I propose SE do instead, is exactly what so many on the forums have been suggesting: make both of these MSQ dungeons solo instances, complete with NPC companions. This would completely solve all problems arising from these dungeons, and will allow players to choose their own pace - either skipping the cutscenes if they don't care about the storyline, or watching them in their entirety.

I sincerely hope that SE is paying attention to the significant unhappiness this change is generating. As is often the case, they created a lazy and imperfect fix to a real problem. And, as often results from such a choice, their fix has significant and unpleasant side effects.

Fix the problem properly, already. Then nobody needs to worry about it ever again.

[BillyKaplan]

What I propose SE do instead, is exactly what so many on the forums have been suggesting: make both of these MSQ dungeons solo instances, complete with NPC companions. This would completely solve all problems arising from these dungeons, and will allow players to choose their own pace - either skipping the cutscenes if they don't care about the storyline, or watching them in their entirety.

I agree, and it will also help to solve a lot of the problems with new players having no idea what to do in there - for one, there will be no other players to click the things in their place, making them think they don't need to. Second, as we'll likely have NPCs with us, they can just throw lines up in any number of text options to guide the player, solving the rest of the issues.
Then they can also bring back the dialog option they took out >.>

[TaranTatsuuchi]

Firstly, I agree they should have been made solo instances, but SE decided that the dev resources were not worth the investment...



Allow me to speculate, and do some comparisons to another exploit in recent history.....



If players willfully exploit this in some sort of 'protest' to get SE to do something, and they do make alterations...

I don't see them going with a 'scalpel' solution.
But rather a sledgehammer.

One that's quick, easy, and light on dev resource requirements but still adresses the 'problem'.




Think back to the launch of Stormblood.
We had rampant exploitation of game mechanics to avoid the intended AFK kick system in game.

Players were not logging out of the game, and the servers reached max capacity.
Other players trying to get in the game were stuck in hours long queues because people refused to get off and open up their spot.



I personally reported many people back at that time, one of which used to be on my friends list.

I know that GM's were taking action against these players, as I could see the effects on the person on my friends list.
That person was on a crafting class, in housing area, afk for greater than 30 minutes at a time.

After my reports, sometime after I'd see them offline.



SE did not do the resource intensive fix of revamping the afk kick system.
They went with the sledgehammer approach of just booting every single person off the server at the same time of the day prior to prime time.

This rectified the issue the first day it was implemented.
Queue numbers were still large, but the queues were progressing at a good pace.

This did impact legitimate players who were not exploiting, and trying to play at the times everyone logged off, but it did fix the problem.




Now, looking to the current exploit.
Like the afk kick exploits, it goes completely against what the devs intend for the system.

If they are forced to make adjustments to it...
I don't see them doing something resource intensive as retooling the instances to solo duties. (which should have been the initial fix).

But rather, I see them going with another sledgehammer approach...
What came to my mind was something like this...



A system wherein, if a player gets disconnected from the server during these duties, that player could be removed from the party and returned to the overworld.

Like the simultanious logout measures enacted during stormblood, this will impact legitimate players, but would copmpletely solve the problem of people exploiting disconnection to skip cutscenes.



I wouldn't like to see it progress to that level.
But I don't think a proper 'fix' to these dungeons will come from players massivly exploiting the game's systems.

[Vhailor]

I wouldn't like to see it progress to that level.
But I don't think a proper 'fix' to these dungeons will come from players massivly exploiting the game's systems.

I don't think the pressure here is going to come from any disconnect-related exploit; I think it'll instead come from unsustainable queue times and new players continuing to complain about other problematic aspects of the MSQ dungeons that weren't fixed (things like the atrocious Magitek armour authorization process).

SE is far more sensitive to these pressures. Indeed, it was rampant complaints by new players that prompted the changes in 4.2 to begin with. I do agree that it might not be enough for SE to commit the dev resources a proper fix demands (just look at their intransigence in regards to Glamours), but they're still worth bringing up, especially if SE's internal statistics show that these missions are contributing to people quitting FFXIV.

[Krotoan]

Fix the problem properly, already. Then nobody needs to worry about it ever again.

All valid concerns and useful suggestions. I've said before it's unlikely they'd put in the resources to actually rework the 2.0 MSQ dungeons but this doesn't mean I don't think they should.
As you've said it's a general consensus in the forums that SE will outright refuse to do anything extensive on old content. The reasons for this have never truly been disclosed or defined other than we know they operate on "limited resources". Now whether or not that means manpower, budget, or time nobody here knows. It could even possibly just be a cop out and they have other reasons entirely they do not wish to disclose, but I'd like to think we're not there.

Lets say this current situation is because they have limited manpower as an example though. Knowing this, and knowing that they'd have to divert some of this to rework the MSQ into a solo instance with NPC's with appropriate waypoints, tactics and prompts, would you support a delay in current content to get this done? Or are you of the mind that since they're pulling in money at all , more should be spent on expanding the resources available to the FFXIV team to make this kind of change happen? As in the sacrifice here needs to be wholly absorbed by the company.

I ask this a lot because I hear many people say "oh they just need to.. " but once you propose a cost for that to happen they immediately balk and say how it "just needs to get done and should have been done long ago. ". Personally I don't think we're "owed" anything since the game has been and continues to be worth the subscription I pay, but I suppose others do not see it that way.

I'm also curious if you're on the "revert the change , too much negative impact was made" side or do you think even with the negatives at least some progress was made that warrants keeping the change around? Barring people who like to argue and flap away everything said as a labeled argument fallacy I really do want to hear an opinion. You seem like you've put a lot of thought into it, what's your take?

[Vhailor]

All valid concerns and useful suggestions. I've said before it's unlikely they'd put in the resources to actually rework the 2.0 MSQ dungeons but this doesn't mean I don't think they should.
As you've said it's a general consensus in the forums that SE will outright refuse to do anything extensive on old content. The reasons for this have never truly been disclosed or defined other than we know they operate on "limited resources". Now whether or not that means manpower, budget, or time nobody here knows. It could even possibly just be a cop out and they have other reasons entirely they do not wish to disclose, but I'd like to think we're not there.

Lets say this current situation is because they have limited manpower as an example though. Knowing this, and knowing that they'd have to divert some of this to rework the MSQ into a solo instance with NPC's with appropriate waypoints, tactics and prompts, would you support a delay in current content to get this done? Or are you of the mind that since they're pulling in money at all , more should be spent on expanding the resources available to the FFXIV team to make this kind of change happen? As in the sacrifice here needs to be wholly absorbed by the company.

I ask this a lot because I hear many people say "oh they just need to.. " but once you propose a cost for that to happen they immediately balk and say how it "just needs to get done and should have been done long ago. ". Personally I don't think we're "owed" anything since the game has been and continues to be worth the subscription I pay, but I suppose others do not see it that way.

I'll try to keep my response organized, but it's likely to be lengthy.

(1) I'd happily accept multiple entirely missed content cycles in order to have many of FFXIV's long-standing problems and server limitations resolved. I have two lines of reasoning for this.

The first is that I believe FFXIV isn't even close to living up to its potential. Just looking at the MSQ, we can see issues with the Main Scenario Roulette dungeons; we can see issues with the horrific 2.x quest slog; we can see issues arising from the sequential nature of the main storyline (people having to play through ARR and Heavensward before even touching new expansion content, or feeling compelled to purchase an item to fix it). That's not even touching on the catastrophe that is the Glamour system, the badly limited Housing system, the general whiffs on outside-the-box content (Diadem, Diadem 2.0, hopefully not Eureka...), the ongoing and ridiculous limitations like not being able to send /tells in dungeons, etc.

I want to see SE fix all of this.

The second reason I'd accept missed content cycles is that, really, 75% of each update cycle is a one or two new dungeons that simply change scenery for the Expert Roulette, a new Raid of some sort, some Glamours, and an iLevel increase. There isn't much actually there, generally. I mean, has anyone really felt like 4.2 added much? A few new instances, sure, but once the mechanics are mastered, doesn't it drop down to the same old grind as before, only aiming for Mendacity instead of Creation?

It's worth the sacrifice, in my mind.

(2) Having said all that, I'm also of the mind that SE should be expanding the development team, and should absorb the costs of doing so.

Let's consider: SE has put in a cash shop alongside a P2P model, so that they could milk more profit from the title. They've charged $40 for expansions instead of the more standard $30. They charge monthly fee additions for Retainers and extra characters, something no other MMO does to my knowledge. Despite all of this, they've actually cut down on the content typically offered in each patch cycle; Raids barely have trash monsters anymore, they're just a series of bosses. The Relic weapon is still not here, roughly 8 months after the release of Stormblood.

So, where is the money going, exactly? SE is opening up more revenue streams on the back of their flagship MMO than they've ever had before, while cutting back (or at best holding roughly steady) on content. Unless the development team was chronically underpaid and is now being generously compensated for their sacrifice, I fail to see much excuse for this.

I don't feel this way, incidentally, because I feel 'owed' something by SE. FFXIV is still tremendously good value for the money. However, increased revenue streams should translate to improved content. Look at Netflix as an example; they upped their rates a bit, and all of a sudden started churning out huge numbers of in-house films and TV shows, many of which are quite good. As a consumer, I see a benefit to paying more money for their service. That helps justify the fee increase to me. What I see from SE is the opposite, and giving a company more money for worse, or equivalent, content, just grates on me the wrong way.

I'm also curious if you're on the "revert the change , too much negative impact was made" side or do you think even with the negatives at least some progress was made that warrants keeping the change around? Barring people who like to argue and flap away everything said as a labeled argument fallacy I really do want to hear an opinion. You seem like you've put a lot of thought into it, what's your take?

I'm not sure, honestly. If the queue times worsen to the point where it's no longer a tenable situation, I'd rather see the change reverted than the rewards increased again. Bribing people to do brutally tedious content is likely to help queue times, but these dungeons right now generate a very real sense of annoyance at the game, and that's not a healthy feeling to be instilling in the player base.

More than anything, I think this change was, in addition to everything else, very poorly timed. We're 8 months into an expansion cycle, and therefore the influx of new players is almost certainly less than it was even six months ago. To me, this solution would have been a lot more acceptable if it was a temporary measure introduced for, say, the first two patch cycles of each expansion, maybe preceding an expansion by a month. At that point, it's unpleasant for veterans in some sense, but the queue timers are (in theory) manageable because of the large number of incoming new players.

Alright, I think that's it. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, too!

[ShanXiv]

So, where is the money going, exactly? SE is opening up more revenue streams on the back of their flagship MMO than they've ever had before, while cutting back (or at best holding roughly steady) on content. Unless the development team was chronically underpaid and is now being generously compensated for their sacrifice, I fail to see much excuse for this.

I don't feel this way, incidentally, because I feel 'owed' something by SE. FFXIV is still tremendously good value for the money. However, increased revenue streams should translate to improved content. Look at Netflix as an example; they upped their rates a bit, and all of a sudden started churning out huge numbers of in-house films and TV shows, many of which are quite good. As a consumer, I see a benefit to paying more money for their service. That helps justify the fee increase to me. What I see from SE is the opposite, and giving a company more money for worse, or equivalent, content, just grates on me the wrong way.

Compare to 2.0, 4.0 has better graphic quality, better CG movies, better story quests.
better music, better sounds, larger maps.
the overall quality of 4.0 is better than 2.0.
The Royal City of Rabanastre is currently the best 24man dungeon.
And I really like the FF5/6 bosses in Deltascape.

The problem is not money, they have more resources than FFXI,FFXIV1.1x-1.2x team

Look at the luxury FFXV,chapter 13 is a mess. FFXIII?meh...
Tales of Berseria,The Legend of Heroes VI series are better RPG IMO
The Nier Automata is more impressive than those costly AAA FPS games.

The problem is the resource allocation,the speed of content consumption,the direction of the game,the lack of longevity,
and the lack of MMO development experience(Yoshida and his team should play some FFXI, not WOW..)

[Alleo]

Compare to 2.0, 4.0 has better graphic quality, better CG movies, better story quests.
better music, better sounds, larger maps.
the overall quality of 4.0 is better than 2.0.
The Royal City of Rabanastre is currently the best 24man dungeon.
And I really like the FF5/6 bosses in Deltascape.

The problem is not money, they have more resources than FFXI,FFXIV1.1x-1.2x team

Look at the luxury FFXV,chapter 13 is a mess. FFXIII?meh...
Tales of Berseria,The Legend of Heroes VI series are better RPG IMO
The Nier Automata is more impressive than those costly AAA FPS games.

The problem is the resource allocation,the speed of content consumption,the direction of the game,the lack of longevity,
and the lack of MMO development experience(Yoshida and his team should play some FFXI, not WOW..)

Your first points are nearly all subjective. Yes it might look better from 2.0 but for example still looks bad in some parts (Hiens clothes for example..). CG movies are just there for the trailer and marketing and honestly I dont care if they would get better over time because they dont affect the true game much. And the ingame cutscenes are not that much better. They might show a bit of more reaction but we still nod and punch a lot and the NPCs are still moving weirdly. Story quest is also highly subjective, for most of the time I found the story in HW quite better. The same with music. Yes we have bigger maps but those are so lifeless that I wish that we would have smaller ones that are much more filled with life. The only great map is the Azim steppe for me, all the others dont really hold my interest so again subjective.

The raids feel worse for me too because both of them lean so much on nostalgie and fanservice while at least older raids gave me the sense of being truly part of the world. The worst offender is Omega with it pure FF nostalgie but also the 24 man is not that good imo because I questioned the whole time why the bosses where even there...

Yoshida himself also stated that they need more money and especially a much bigger team. He himself is doing two jobs and would love to step down from one, so yeah their biggest problem is the missing employees. (And a huge amount of their income probably goes back into other games) But I agree with the speed of content consumption and lack of longevity. I would also add that they imo put ressources in the wrong part of the game or try to find complicated solutions or band aid fixes..

They also seem to have a huge problem with getting and using our feedback. Just look at Diadem 1.0 and 2.0. I really hope that Eureka is better than just being 3.0 and hopefully a content that stays alive longer than a couple of months..they really need to make more descisions were they dont need to fix stuff all the time. Instead of having a good housing system from the beginning they have a system that is full of bandaids and even now is far away from perfect. They added a glamour change that barely addressed the problems people have and that need a lot of fixes before its truly good too (and they even said that they have to watch the stabilitiy first so we dont even know if they can fix it everywhere). The MSQ change which should have helped the newer players might hurt them in the long run and annoyed quite some veterans too instead of making it into something that is win win for all players. Perform was released in a bad state and needed a fix right after that which kinda changed the system a lot. We still dont have more egi glamours and Eureka seems to not gather much hype here on the forum either..Content like Diadem (1 and 2) are death, the same with LoV. Such a big amount of ressources wasted on stuff like that..They really need another big hit like PoTD and not another big fail otherwise I will kinda question if they can even create longliving content for this game..