Lets stop fighting SE and work with them. What are your ideas?

[FallenWings]

It shouldn't be a problem since we're supposed to be a team. Right now it really bugs me that DPS do their thing, we do ours, and there is basically no synergy between us.

No, because if your DPS are way below your aggro, you can focus more on personal damage than keeping your threat level high. If they can't compete even when you're tanking in DPS stance, sure, throw that tank stance away.

I don't feel rewarded by optimizing my personal DPS, I feel rewarded by optimizing the raid DPS. Right now, both are the same, but give me another way to do the latter, and I won't care about the fomer.

Synergy should be something that allows you to do more rather than restrict you of basic functions. I too don't agree with the idea that tanks should be individually lower in overall direct contribution because it's frankly again, completely reliant on your DPS to be not dumb. If we have a massive aggro lead but the DPS are not utilizing it, what's the point of us doing our damage combo when it is going to be significantly less impactful?

I like to support like any other person, but I don't like being a pocket slave. It again, kinda destroys my fantasy and my personal enjoyment of the game when tanks are designed to be side kicks/Robins to our DPS heroes/Batmans than equal team mates.

What's the point of us using big swords/axes or even straight swords if they do nothing? Why don't we just be all shield bearers since that seems to be the only thing people seem to think the role "tank" as?

I'm tired of the idea that the only appropriate flavor for tanks is Shield/More Shields when DPS can range from knives and swords to staves and guns or virtually any weapon conceivable.

[Reynhart]

If we have a massive aggro lead but the DPS are not utilizing it, what's the point of us doing our damage combo when it is going to be significantly less impactful?

I don't understand. If you want to have massive aggro, you'll probably need your tank stance and a use your enmity combo a lot. Right now, this "rotation" would lead to very low personal DPS. If you want high personal DPS, you'll drop your tank stance as much as possible and do only the minimum required enmity combo.

This would not change with my idea, apart from having a more complex enmity rotation. If your DPS can not make profit of your enmity, then it's better for the raid if you stick with the current focus on personal DPS. In that case, your personal DPS would still be impactful when compared to your DPS (low) number.

tanks are designed to be side kicks/Robins to our DPS heroes/Batmans than equal team mates.

We're not sidekicks. Without us, the whole team would die in mere seconds. It's the exact same oversight as those who consider healers as "cure-slave". We've seen synced content done with a team full of tanks, where are the "full DPS" team that cleared the current savage raid ?

What's the point of us using big swords/axes or even straight swords if they do nothing?

Sorry to disappoint you, but it's a trinity based MMO. You could wield a litteral nuclear bomb, if you're a tank, you'll do less damage than a DPS using a harp...

[Zojha]

We're not sidekicks. Without us, the whole team would die in mere seconds.

No, without you, the game designers would simply lower the amount of un-avoidable damage and life would go on as usual. Similar goes for healers. The only role that truly matters is DPS, because you cannot easily remove those - the game, including tanking and healing, are built around damage. Focusing damage on you, mitigating damage and undoing damage simply are pointless without damage existing in the first place. Health bars in general are.

And with that in mind, it's plain to see why full tank parties were able to pull off synced content: Because they were given lots of damage, enough to beat DPS checks specifically designed for DPS. It's the fact they can turn into a DPS that allows them such. If you don't turn yourself into a DPS and actually deal damage, you cannot even slay an open world trash mob as tank or healer, because tanking and healing both do not contribute to winning a fight, they only delay loss. And delaying loss is pretty useless by itself, hence they rely on being forced into groups - Whenever they are not artificially forced into groups, they are benched. Happens to off-tanks quite often when the fight doesn't have enough gimmicks to enforce them or main tanks become geared enough to absorb those. The second healer is also gladly ditched if you don't need them, either via overgearing or because the fight isn't designed with high enough base demands.

And because they are artificially forced into groups, DPS cannot pull off the same. The encounters are specifically designed to prevent that, because if they could, tanks would not even be taken into groups, as, again, they are innately useless. It's all about damage, because damage is what makes you win. And because of that, tanks and healers ARE in fact sidekicks, to the point they require the ability to turn themselves into DPS, because only DPS matters in the end.

And that's why DPS is a pretty big deal for every role. It's what the game revolves around. Don't even think for a moment you could get anything done without it.

/endrant

[FallenWings]

It doesn't matter about comparing to low DPS because we're going at two extremes here. I hate the notion of a singular set of playstyle where you HAVE to tank stance to tank. That's just too simple and boring. Especially when all you do while tanking is generate an arbitrary number that does nothing by itself when you can do that now and still feel like you're contributing. Aggro by itself is boring. Why do the other roles have complete access to all their skills while us tanks have to choose between one half or the other?

And yes, if a tank is purely there because the content requires at a minimum one of them then he is indeed there as a side kick. You ever hear of any legit strategy adding another tank? No? Because all I see is everyone clamoring to drop tanks whenever and wherever possible. Remember the age of Solo tank raids? That felt shit.

And please, the only reason those 8 man tank runs were even viable was because of overgearing and the tanks ability to heal. That's the actual crutch there not their slight sturdiness or ability to hold aggro good. Don't use that example because we both know it's meme example that holds no weight in actual design and balance concerns.

Sorry to disappoint you, but it's a trinity based MMO. You could wield a litteral nuclear bomb, if you're a tank, you'll do less damage than a DPS using a harp...

Yeah, go and advertise that line and tell me how many new tanks you get. Because of that very concept, I'm sure that's a large contributing factor to why the Tank role is not popular. No one wants to feel like a weakling or be a female doge.

[Reynhart]

The only role that truly matters is DPS

No, without you, game designer would only reduce the amount of HP on mobs and life would go on as usual.

I hate the notion of a singular set of playstyle where you HAVE to tank stance to tank.

Considering this is your personal taste, there's no reason to arbitrary decide that it's better or worst than the current singular set of playstyle where you have to tank stance. Yet, this current playstyle is so forced down our throat that you have people bitching about it in dungeons.

And yes, if a tank is purely there because the content requires at a minimum one of them then he is indeed there as a side kick.

No, if you're required, you're not a sidekick. "Legit strategy adding another tank" ? Yes, for lots of content. And if not, tell me where are the solo A1S with correponding ilvl.

And please, the only reason those 8 man tank runs were even viable was because of overgearing and the tanks ability to heal.

So, I guess you can send 8 overgeared but still synced RDM in A12S, right ? I'd like to see that happen.

Yeah, go and advertise that line and tell me how many new tanks you get. Because of that very concept, I'm sure that's a large contributing factor to why the Tank role is not popular.

No, this concept is well know by any MMO (or Final Fantasy) player . What your job looks like has absolutely no impact on what he does. If people don't like to tank, it's only because they don't like to be responsible for wipes or treated like shit by DPS divas.

[FallenWings]

They can reduce the mobs HP to 1 and the tank and healer wouldn't be able to win because "hur dur I only hold aggro and mitigate or I only heal cuz im a HEALer"

What you've suggested where it's only tank stance or go home is exactly that. Only one singular possible playstyle. What we have now is two that can clear. Sure one is more objectively better than the other but at the very least they can both be played with and cleared with. Tank stance or get critted to death? Yeah, fantastic. /s

Yeah the RDM's will probably be able to do it considering their goddamn ability to both raise AND heal. Tank busters? Sack and raise. Oh look, they did it, and considerable faster than the "fantastic 8 tank comp". This is a pointless argument.

It's also well fricken known that no one wants to play tanks or healers. It's also well firetrucken known that everyone wants to play DPS. Why aren't we changing this? Why are we happy to stay in the archaic idea of pure trinity or go home? It's not perfect and we all know it. What SE have down so far is a step in the right direction. DPS queues weren't hour long in HW because would you believe it? People WANTED to play tanks and healers. Why? Because they were able to contribute and feel strong. This ofcourse isn't the only factor as there are many others such as two frocken DPS roles and no tanks in the new expansion or the failure to deliver on tank balance when it was promised instead of a new tank. But I believe it is nonetheless a big contributing factor alongside those and the responsibilities thing. Being a protector is not popular and if you base your tank role around that and only around that then that small pool of people is all you're gonna get.

[Reynhart]

What you've suggested where it's only tank stance or go home is exactly that. Only one singular possible playstyle. What we have now is two that can clear. Sure one is more objectively better than the other but at the very least they can both be played with and cleared with. Tank stance or get critted to death? Yeah, fantastic. /s

Ok, so, basically, you didn't understand what I said...

Yeah the RDM's will probably be able to do it considering their goddamn ability to both raise AND heal. Tank busters? Sack and raise. Oh look, they did it, and considerable faster than the "fantastic 8 tank comp". This is a pointless argument.

Let's talk about it once a video shows that, ok ?

It's also well fricken known that no one wants to play tanks or healers.

Except all the people that actually like to play tanks for tanking. You know, those people that think it's approriate that tanks should wear VIT gear, use tank stance, do significantly less damage than DPS...

What SE have down so far is a step in the right direction.

No, it's not, and that's why they're changing it little by little.

DPS queues weren't hour long in HW because would you believe it? People WANTED to play tanks and healers. Why? Because they were able to contribute and feel strong.

No, DPS queues weren't that long because the game didn't give two highly-requested-flavor-of-the-month-DPS at the same, for which the hype will die soon enough. That's why any party you'll find right now will have at least one RDM or SAM, if not both.

Being a protector is not popular and if you base your tank role around that and only around that then that small pool of people is all you're gonna get.

Of course it's not popular since you have people that feel perfectly OK to say you're not contributing at all to the fight if you focus on tanking. Why don't we let the DPS go by themselves ? After all, to use your reference, why would you take two Robins in the team if you can have two Batmans instead.

[Shurrikhan]

Ok, so, basically, you didn't understand what I said...

Her summary actually seems pretty apt to me. I guess I'm misinfering as well?

No, it's not, and that's why they're changing it little by little...

...No, DPS queues weren't that long because the game didn't give two highly-requested-flavor-of-the-month-DPS at the same, for which the hype will die soon enough. That's why any party you'll find right now will have at least one RDM or SAM, if not both.

To be honest, I've yet to see a queue over 24 minutes. I average 12-15. And that's across leveling 5 DPS to 70 by solo-queue dungeon spamming. The times don't feel any higher than Heavensward. If anything, PvP and PotD diverting DPS made them feel shorter than Heavensward until queuing for later dungeons and after the PvP XP nerf both.

That said, Stormblood tanks over the course of leveling were actually given the highest relative strength they've ever had in the history of the game. With the 20% damage increase via Job Action Damage I/II removed from DPS classes and AP contribution returned to purely strength, the gap had never been smaller. It's just that Stormblood tanks are more effective with Heavensward accessories than Stormblood, mitigating more over time and contributing more to any given clear; the scaling is only half there.

But that all sounds like intelligent design, or even trying to close the output vs. safety ("true" tank vs. effective tank) gap to you?

Why don't we let the DPS go by themselves?

As often as possible, you do let the DPS go by themselves, so long as it would reduce the time necessary to accomplish the objectives. How is this even worth renewed debate?

"Luckily" for tanks (and healers to an extent), there are specific gimmicks meant to ensure that they aren't skipped, sometimes even by flat out immunizing all enemies to effects that would otherwise allow for other modes of mitigation or strategic defensive play (e.g. CC) or removing such tools from the toolkits of native DPS.

What's next? A crippling potency loss unless within 30 yards of a tank to ensure the same quality of solo play as those of the tank (since reduced to aggro zone) role? Premades only for PotD, guys. God forbid we forget our two extra warm bodies to ensure that the half remaining of the party is allowed to get stuff done. True trinity, go!

[Reynhart]

Her summary actually seems pretty apt to me. I guess I'm misinfering as well?

Can you explain the "Tank stance or get critted to death?" then, plz ?

Let me ask you a question. Imagine that, after the constant complain of having reduced the skill ceiling too much, every DPS get an updated and very complex rotation for very skilled players that allow them to do 50% more damage. But, the aftermath of that boost is that is would be almost impossible to not lose aggro without a really high tank stance uptime. Would you embrace using your tank stance more or would you come here asking for them to be nerfed back so you can retain your full personal DPS ?

[Ragology]

Can you explain the "Tank stance or get critted to death?" then, plz ?

I think it was a reference to this post

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...change-stances

The other would be to alter raid design to make tank stances mandatory. Things like the boss auto-crits you if you don't have a tank stance up, and tie all enmity generation to tank stances.