Lets stop fighting SE and work with them. What are your ideas?

[Reynhart]

In order to be clearable, raids can't require HP checks that you can only meet by having the loot that drops from the raid.

Never said that. But a content that requires ilvl300 should require ilvl300 worth of vitatily. Going into Susano EX with "only" 36kHP should get you killed.

Of course my saying something wouldn't affect the game; how on Earth could it? I'm pointing out a design flaw.

What ? You quoted me when I said that VIT is tank's main stat. How is that a design flaw ?!

[Argyle_Darkheart]

What ? You quoted me when I said that VIT is tank's main stat. How is that a design flaw ?!

A poster made the contention that VIT (HP) was not tank's main stat. You responded saying "nuh uh, look, it's on tank accessories!" No shit, we're well aware that it's on tank accessories; that doesn't mean it's the stat most influential to tank gameplay. I tried in vain to illustrate this possibility to you with a painfully obvious hypothetical, but you choose to remain obtuse.

I will try one last time.

If Samurai's main stat was considered, by the game, to be VIT--insofar as being locked into VIT accessories--despite it doing little to nothing to influence their core gameplay, would you consider this sound design?

[ADVSS]

A poster made the contention that VIT (HP) was not tank's main stat. You responded saying "nuh uh, look, it's on tank accessories!" No shit, we're well aware that it's on tank accessories; that doesn't mean it's the stat most influential to tank gameplay. I tried in vain to illustrate this possibility to you with a painfully obvious hypothetical, but you choose to remain obtuse.

I will try one last time.

If Samurai's main stat was considered, by the game, to be VIT--insofar as being locked into VIT accessories--despite it doing little to nothing to influence their core gameplay, would you consider this sound design?

I too, am beating my head over "they get a stat boost trait at levels" but no equivalent to "mend and maim" or anything crucial to the gameplay of the job.
Attack Power(not necessarilly strength but currently is str) influences everythig a tank does, damage, enmity generation, self healing potency(through damage for DRK) since their damage is crap to begin with they have combos that fake having a damage buff but insteads just adds the enmity that would have been generated is called a multiplier. Tank stances push a multiplier to attacks sd well as their defensive additions, but the fact remains that a tank tanks(holds aggro) better with more attack power, and self heals better with more attack powerm and originally in 2.0 str affected the amount of damage a parry or block would reduce, so back then attack power even enhanced the passive mitigation a tank had

So while technically VIT is the main stat of tanks, its actually more like piety to healers, whilst MND -THE MAIN stat for healers, affects the damage they do, the healing they do, the effectiveness of their shields, etc.

[Reynhart]

Attack Power(not necessarilly strength but currently is str) influences everythig a tank does

Everything except one tiny little thing...how they survive. As for healing potency, before level 58, PLD has 0 self healing at all and the only capacity WAR has to heal is 100% tied to its max HP, and thus, vitality.
PLD's Stoneskin back then was affected by max HP, as is Divine Veil, and now, TBN, the most spammable DRK mitigation move, is, again, tied to max HP.

As for enmity, raw attack power is less and less important the more they buff the enmity bonus.

[ADVSS]

Everything except one tiny little thing...how they survive. As for healing potency, before level 58, PLD has 0 self healing at all and the only capacity WAR has to heal is 100% tied to its max HP, and thus, vitality.
PLD's Stoneskin back then was affected by max HP, as is Divine Veil, and now, TBN, the most spammable DRK mitigation move, is, again, tied to max HP.

As for enmity, raw attack power is less and less important the more they buff the enmity bonus.

Youre right, and my point about scaling attack power due to the current tank design is so we dont have to see, do so many enmity boosts about every or every other patch. Since 2.0 its been enmity boost enmity boost enmity boost. performance.That to me means that tanks arent currently balanced to scale with other jobs. And removing a scaling stats ability to scale with their performance just means monthly enmity buffs at the expense of being reasonable and having tanks progress just like the other jobs when it comes to performance. Now they dont want to just scale it all on Vit because of "hp inflation", which perhaps your suggestions to make every boss auto attack kill everything but a tank, but i think theyre realizing or stated rather vaguely that they do not want tanks hp to be out the roof high. So from my standpoint. they either need to redo tanking, or continue with cooldown popping, tanks popping tank stance "as a cooldown" literally, thats what they use it for when "dancing" and figure out a whole new way to do the role thats logical and practical.

One possibly terrible way for them to push tanks to stay in stance, since they dont want to scale their attack power anymore, is to have a real tank guage. operate similarly to the craptastic beast guage, except that using cooldowns like rampart would cost "tank guage points" for which the stronger ones would cost more tank guage. Id very much dislike this suggestion, but like one i made earlier with cooldowns actually scaling with vit levels, itd do that sort of thing.

Another way is to cause Tank Stance to scale defensively over time, or in conjunction to said craptastic guage, in that its no longer a poppable cooldown, but a buff that gets defensive stacks, the longer its used. Fight design would have to change though,.

They could keep the meta also, and just have tanks get a trait that scales defense based on hp lost, so that healers crying about how fast tanks go down, would get that artificial buffer Vit acts like. Meaning a lowe the tanks health, the higher their natural defense gets

my personal opinion would be to scale vit/tenacity and make tenacity the same as strength currently is, and have that afect the tanks damage, but thatd require some thought. I think scaling the AP with vit at a reduced amount is just fine, personally. I dont have anything against STR or VIT tanks, and in some terms both arguments hold a tiny bit of water. The problem i have is that SE doesnt want to allow tanks to deal good dps, because dps start crying. They dont want to give them a million hp because eventually, that becomes rediculous, or then people would run tanks even for the slow dps cause theyre unkillable. But they have to do something. The vit/str was something i disliked, because they didnt originally scale it with current damage that going full str went. Over time, the argument flushed. But wait theres more! Tanks get a ton a VIT and they gotta make stuff hit harder, because cure2 wont have a purpose anymore if healers mnd scales like god tier. But if they did that, tanks would deal reliable damage, comparable to dps, and eventually with how vitality is slopped on gear at increasing paces, then that vit tank will start hitting hard like dps. What do we do? Just let tanks have it. At the end of the day, as mentioned in other threads, once the OT position isnt needed anymore after overgearing, most groups replace them with a DPS. I for one, find the role stressful. But a hell of a lot less than PLD 2.0 pre buff,pre anything/ Enmity is a lot easier, but if damage or any performance outside of just to hold hate isnt scaled, you just get benched by the community, as youre not needed any more.

Part of the complaints are well thought of and then part of comments are not even mindful that the job and role isnt that popular, has a low fun factor and a majority would rather play something else. We need tanks more than just to get into queues, and part of that a big part, is the fun factor. Some like to deal comparable damage while staying alive. Why ruin that nbecause some assume all you should do is stand there and get punched at? Ontil they rewrite the entire combat algorithm, or get rid of dps checks/add phases in every boss since ifrit ever, they need to just go "ok we concede: Scale AP with Vit, or VIT/STR, dps can just shut it, since they refuse to tank, and just let both camps be hapoy. "Just getting punched in the face is fun" was said by nobody ever.

[Lyth]

...

Your ability to survive Walking Dead in inversely related to your HP. It's also worth noting that the more HP on TBN, the less likely it is to break and reimburse you with 50 blood, which is kind of what it's designed to do.

Inflating the enmity multipliers only becomes necessary when you have a large discrepancy between tank damage output and dps damage output. If there's a sensible balance and both get progressively stronger with gear, then you don't have to keep changing it every couple of patches.

[Reynhart]

Since 2.0 its been enmity boost enmity boost enmity boost. performance.That to me means that tanks arent currently balanced to scale with other jobs.

Frankly, I never had that many issue with enmty, simply because I use my enmity combo as soon as someone is too close. If people wouldn't cry that they have to use it more and lose their precious DPS, we wouldn't need these adjustement...except on Unleash, which potency nerf is one of the worst idea of 4.0

Your ability to survive Walking Dead in inversely related to your HP.

More HP also mean that you're less likey to need Walking Dead. And the value of Benediction increases with your max HP.

It's also worth noting that the more HP on TBN, the less likely it is to break and reimburse you with 50 blood, which is kind of what it's designed to do.

TBN is a mitigation before anything else. More HP means less damage taken.

4: Make the boss split and the two parts having to be separated to not buff each other.

One of the few good ideas from Gordias...and it existed since Turn 1 with Caduceus.

The only problem is that they're designing the content to be cleared by the casualest of casuals.

People enforced STR acc and tanking in DPS stance in Alex Savage, which isn't casual content, while being the only content where the increased DPS actually matters. Kill that possibility, and the meta will fall apart by itself.

[Gravton]

People enforced STR acc and tanking in DPS stance in Alex Savage, which isn't casual content, while being the only content where the increased DPS actually matters. Kill that possibility, and the meta will fall apart by itself.

No it won't. So long as the OT has nothing to do but wait for a swap, the meta will remain the same. When the OT is waiting, he is a dps. Dps have to strive for higher numbers. If he can get higher numbers while in OT, he will strive for it during MT. We all know that will be the mentality of the 1% and thus create the meta. Think about all the endgame content that wouldn't require an OT if the devs didn't enforce the tank swap. So long as we have it tanks are dps at some point or another.