PvP AFK

[Nixxe]

PvP was "dead" for all the people that refused to try it, usually under word-of-mouth falsehoods and general dissuasion (i.e. "lol there's PvP in this game?", "PvP is full of toxic elitist jerks", "there's too many buttons", etc.). I played and enjoyed it with MANY people well before Garo.

You also fail to realize Wolf Marks are only easier to cap now that you get 1000/500/250 per win, as opposed to the much lower amounts given before. And "for glamour purposes" is a flat argument to make as - again, before when you REALLY had to PvP a lot to afford items - few people who simply wanted a glamour item were going to stick around long enough to farm up 12,500 wolf marks for a body piece (as opposed to the now 4000 they cost. That's 4 first place wins. 2 if you do Frontline Roulettes). Not to mention, if they get rid of it, it's hardly a loss. Non-PvPers obviously won't miss it, and long-time PvPers just let them pile up. PvP gear often came far and few between anyways. Before 3.5, the last time there was any new gear was in 3.25. If you want to try and argue the point of "get rid of ALL rewards then!", use a stronger argument than Wolf Marks.

And lastly, don't try to tell me of all people that the rewards are the reason for functional queues. Those of us who've been doing it for a long time, those of us who knew that GC imbalances were a large reason for lengthy queues, know that it was Frontline Freelancer - GC restriction bypass - that improved the queues. . . like we said it would for 2 years. If out of 72 people in queue, 40 were Mael, 20 were Flames, and 12 were Adders, you weren't getting a match any time soon. Now that it doesn't matter which GC you belong to, as long as 72 people queue (hell, even if just 24 queue), you're in.

I was hardly the one focusing on Wolf Marks. That was you, who seemed to balk at the suggestion of actually removing all rewards, as opposed to just XP. I only named them to emphasize that when I said all, I meant all. No Frontline roulette, no tomestones, no XP, no Wolf Marks, ranked Feast rewards, no nothing. Let PVP live or die solely on its merits as intrinsically enjoyable repetitive content fueled by a supposedly passionate following.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I was hardly the one focusing on Wolf Marks. That was you, who seemed to balk at the suggestion of actually removing all rewards, as opposed to just XP. I only named them to emphasize that when I said all, I meant all. No Frontline roulette, no tomestones, no XP, no Wolf Marks, ranked Feast rewards, no nothing. Let PVP live or die solely on its merits as intrinsically enjoyable repetitive content fueled by a supposedly passionate following.

Okay, let's play that card.

Do the same thing for Expert roulette and watch it die. Why? Because that's entirely WHY people run Expert roulette. Sure, there's someone out there that loves dungeons just that much, but then they could just queue for their favorite ones over and over, regardless of any bonuses. The difference here is that where PvP gives tomes, Expert and plenty of other PvE content gives more. So what WAS an active PvPer doing it for? Not wolf marks. You were capped. Not XP, there was none to get back then. Frontline Roulette? Everyone was playing Shatter anyways. Until Wonderous Tails, you were getting a Shatter match no matter what. Ranked Feast rewards? Hey guess what the prize was every other season? THE SAME THING. And people would still compete. Tomes? It'd take several matches to equal one roulette. If you wanted tomes THAT BAD, you weren't gonna PvP for them. Nice bonus to have - for an endgame activity - but hardly the big draw.

Thing is, you're trying to take it to the extreme of removing all rewards. Few people afked for tomes, especially when there were better options. Or is that common behavior in dungeons and raids? I've pinpointed the fact that afking and leeching wasn't anywhere near as big a problem until XP was being given. And even then, it's STILL not the best source. There's no need to go to extremes, unless of course you're prepared to see it applied across the board.

[Nixxe]

Okay, let's play that card.

Do the same thing for Expert roulette and watch it die. Why? Because that's entirely WHY people run Expert roulette. Sure, there's someone out there that loves dungeons just that much, but then they could just queue for their favorite ones over and over, regardless of any bonuses. The difference here is that where PvP gives tomes, Expert and plenty of other PvE content gives more. So what WAS an active PvPer doing it for? Not wolf marks. You were capped. Not XP, there was none to get back then. Frontline Roulette? Everyone was playing Shatter anyways. Until Wonderous Tails, you were getting a Shatter match no matter what. Ranked Feast rewards? Hey guess what the prize was every other season? THE SAME THING. And people would still compete. Tomes? It'd take several matches to equal one roulette. If you wanted tomes THAT BAD, you weren't gonna PvP for them. Nice bonus to have - for an endgame activity - but hardly the big draw.

Thing is, you're trying to take it to the extreme of removing all rewards. Few people afked for tomes, especially when there were better options. Or is that common behavior in dungeons and raids? I've pinpointed the fact that afking and leeching wasn't anywhere near as big a problem until XP was being given. And even then, it's STILL not the best source. There's no need to go to extremes, unless of course you're prepared to see it applied across the board.

I'm not really sure why you can't understand that I just provided you with what would be necessary to achieve your goal of making sure the only people who PVP are those people who love it or the thrill of combat or whatever. It's not an extreme. It's a logical extrapolation of your desire. As long as there is a reward, there will be someone there pursuing that reward rather than loving the content. If you want to make sure that isn't the case, you need to remove absolutely all of the rewards. Then the dozen or so of you that just love PVP so much it's all you ever want to do in this game can be happy and alone because nobody else will ever bother you in your BGs. Better make sure it's taken out of WT as well though.

However, the main point was only to highlight how ridiculous it was that you were acting like there was some problem with the idea that people may be doing the content for the reward, rather than out of some deep seated love for PVP. This is an MMORPG and diverse content is a selling point, not a design flaw. Personally, I appreciate a game that encourages me to do many types of content by providing incentives to do so. I may not really like PVP in this game, but I don't hate it either, and making it a viable alternative to Palace of the Dead, which I am totally burned out on, is a welcome change. Removing the XP and forcing me back into Palace to level DPS jobs as a result would not be welcome. Similarly, I wouldn't want to do every single combat class via dungeon spam either, though I still want to level at least somewhat efficiently. That I would PVP for this rather than out of love for PVP is apparently horrifying to you, but I would say it's a really normal part of basically every MMORPG. There's no problem if someone's enjoyment of content and motivation to do so said content is at least partly dependent on the rewards.

I also find it strange that you're equating people who play for a reward with people who AFK. You're being ridiculous in doing so. I'm only PVPing right now for XP. That doesn't mean I don't try to win. It doesn't mean I didn't try to win before they nerfed it. Similarly, most people here who are doing it for a reward are probably trying to win. The issue is a rather small group of players who are content to leech, regardless of the consequences for everyone else. However, rather than doing anything even remotely sensible like punishing them specifically, everyone keeps getting worked into a tizzy and clutching their pearls at the thought of "PVEers in my Frontlines?!?" and coming up with these "brilliant" suggestions to basically purge PVP of anyone who might like a reward, thus punishing people who are trying, but aren't PVPing for the "right" reasons.

This entire exchange has been about you and your silliness.

[YitharV2]

However, the main point was only to highlight how ridiculous it was that you were acting like there was some problem with the idea that people may be doing the content for the reward, rather than out of some deep seated love for PVP. This is an MMORPG and diverse content is a selling point, not a design flaw.

Yeah, I totally agree. A lot of MMO players do stuff for the rewards. That's just how it works. I don't think this is necessarily a problem. This raid in TERA I used to queue for everyday (Akerno's Inferno), most people were doing it for the loot. However, I did it for fun, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. They get what they want. I get what I want.

Well, many of us warned that this would be the case with the change - it would cause MORE afk/botting with the xp nerf...well, here we are as predicted.

Yeah, they should've just buffed the XP for winning. When will the community learn that nerfing things is not the answer?

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

snip

I'm gonna ask you to stop putting words in my mouth long enough to actually listen to what I'm saying.

You've been going to plenty of extremes to prove hollow points here, and I've refuted much of that with actual facts from experience. You say "I'm only PvPing right now for XP". Okay, but did you before that? Would you still if they remove it? The point I've repeatedly made is that plenty of people did before XP was ever tabled as a reward, and those same people likely will after. And not just for the other rewards either.

Let me clarify that I'm not wholly against having it. It IS a nice option. But it IS being exploited, largely by people who just don't care otherwise. Yes, people play for rewards in MMOs, that's hardly a point to contest. But don't try to paint a picture like people will ONLY PvP for rewards, especially when I've clearly shown and proved that rewards have been quite far and few for PvPers in this game, but we played anyways. Several different examples you tried to use were shot down, and the fact is you attempted to speak where you simply don't know, and got corrected. And this is about my silliness? Right.

If you're trying to win, good. You're not part of the problem. I've got no issue with people who will actively participate in PvP even if just for the reward, and don't try to paint me like I'm some "purist" who only wants people that absolutely love PvP. You can cut that out right here and now. When the scale becomes so unbalanced that the majority of a team simply won't participate to the point that SE has to go trying to lessen the reward, then as someone who was doing it before the reward was even there, I'm totally fine seeing it go. I'll still play and enjoy it. If someone else new discovered they really like it, maybe they'll still play and enjoy it. PvP in this game offered FAR less than it does now, and people still played and enjoyed it. So the idea that removing XP rewards from it will kill it - when it wasn't even there til now - won't kill it for anyone but "I'm only PvPing right now for XP types."

And I'll be cold enough to say they wouldn't be missed.

[Nixxe]

I'm gonna ask you to stop putting words in my mouth long enough to actually listen to what I'm saying.

You've been going to plenty of extremes to prove hollow points here, and I've refuted much of that with actual facts from experience. You say "I'm only PvPing right now for XP". Okay, but did you before that? Would you still if they remove it? The point I've repeatedly made is that plenty of people did before XP was ever tabled as a reward, and those same people likely will after. And not just for the other rewards either.

Let me clarify that I'm not wholly against having it. It IS a nice option. But it IS being exploited, largely by people who just don't care otherwise. Yes, people play for rewards in MMOs, that's hardly a point to contest. But don't try to paint a picture like people will ONLY PvP for rewards, especially when I've clearly shown and proved that rewards have been quite far and few for PvPers in this game, but we played anyways. Several different examples you tried to use were shot down, and the fact is you attempted to speak where you simply don't know, and got corrected. And this is about my silliness? Right.

If you're trying to win, good. You're not part of the problem. I've got no issue with people who will actively participate in PvP even if just for the reward, and don't try to paint me like I'm some "purist" who only wants people that absolutely love PvP. You can cut that out right here and now. When the scale becomes so unbalanced that the majority of a team simply won't participate to the point that SE has to go trying to lessen the reward, then as someone who was doing it before the reward was even there, I'm totally fine seeing it go. I'll still play and enjoy it. If someone else new discovered they really like it, maybe they'll still play and enjoy it. PvP in this game offered FAR less than it does now, and people still played and enjoyed it. So the idea that removing XP rewards from it will kill it - when it wasn't even there til now - won't kill it for anyone but "I'm only PvPing right now for XP types."

And I'll be cold enough to say they wouldn't be missed.

Again, I haven't gone to any extremes. You were lamenting the inclusion of rewards and the people who PVP'd only for rewards, seemingly even equating those people with the leeches, rather than recognizing the leeches as only a small subset. I told you what would be necessary to get rid of those people. That's it. I don't think PVP should have all of its rewards removed or even any of its rewards removed. I think the people who are the problem should be punished, rather than the people who are after the rewards and actually trying, which is completely in line with how everything else in this game works. I mean, you can say I'm putting words in your mouth, but you're pretty much doubling down on your hostile feelings towards such players even in this very post. Similarly, I never suggested all people only play for rewards. I was saying that if you took away literally all rewards from PVP, you'd probably be left with a population that's too small to sustain the content.

As for me, I PVP'd rarely before for Garo gear, largely because it's supposedly a limited time thing that will go away eventually and some of the glamours are nice enough I may want them later. I have a passing interest in the airship mount from Wolves' Den and may continue working on that after I finish the Garo mount from there simply because I'll be about 15% of the way done and matches are quick, so it's honestly something I could grind out in a weekend if I really wanted to. But other than that, I'd be done and frankly, that stuff has been around for a while and didn't really motivate me to start, so I may very well just continue going without those rewards. XP is the long term reward that will keep me participating for at least a few months and again next expansion. It is the primary motivation for prioritizing that content. Everything else has very limited pull and was never enough to get me to PVP until I was extremely bored and had nothing better to do.

I have yet to see the majority of my team not participate. What I've seen, and what I saw even before XP was added, was the majority of my team participating so poorly that they may as well have not been there.