PvP AFK

[Aeeninwen_Taldel]

They should only give EXP for the team that wins.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

They should only give EXP for the team that wins.

That would create an entirely different problem as 2nd and 3rd place would be inspired to always team up against 1st place. Active sabotaging would take place, and for the people that already lack fighting spirit, you'll have people giving up or dropping matches the moment they think it's impossible to come back or recover.

It's unfortunate, but the only way to really bring integrity back into PvP is to remove the XP reward entirely. Things were much better - even with the supposedly "worse" PvP system we had before - when no XP was given. We played to win, and we enjoyed it. We didn't care about XP. We got it in all the other content the game had to offer and it was a non issue.

I just want to say a couple things not stricly related to the point of the thread. My experience with PvP began with stormblood and ended with the exp nerf. I started really getting into it, trying classes, practising rotations, spending time at the wolves den dueling, doing the priest quest. I tried different strategies, spawn camping, far crystal hunting, grouping up, it was a lot of fun by the way. In the end, I started becoming a good PvP player. Extremes were out, and if I was not playing as my main DRK I used to run PvP all the time. Then they nerfed EXP, and I had to completely abandon it. Experience is important to me, since I have a lot of low level classes and i'm looking for one that's really appealing apart from DRK. The exp nerf was the worst thing to happen since i restarted playing, because it forced me to choose between fun->efficient. Since I play with other friends and we run a lot of PvE, I had to choose efficient and run braindead PotDs forever

I just read this, and I'm sorry to say but if the XP really was the deciding factor for your enjoyment of PvP, it really puts your "fun" in a questionable perspective.

[Clethoria]

If EXP were removed, a good percent would drop it, and even more when they get the glams. I know I would.

2nd and 3rd exp is already nerfed. Leave it at that.

[Emerald_Swords]

Vote to kick option?

[Nixxe]

It's unfortunate, but the only way to really bring integrity back into PvP is to remove the XP reward entirely. Things were much better - even with the supposedly "worse" PvP system we had before - when no XP was given. We played to win, and we enjoyed it. We didn't care about XP. We got it in all the other content the game had to offer and it was a non issue.

I really can't agree. I was grinding Garo gear before XP was added and it wasn't noticeably different. The biggest change for me wasn't the addition of XP, but switching GCs to one that generally has its act together. Since going to Maelstrom, I've won about 40% of my matches and when I don't win I'm in second, often a close second. I've been in third maybe one time since switching. In contrast, when I was on Twin Adders without Freelancer enabled, I was winning only around 20% of the time and routinely coming in third place. When I turned on Freelancer and got put on Flames around 90% of the time, it was a similar experience. On Aether, whatever the reason, Maelstrom just wins more than the other two. Prior to switching, both pre- and post-XP, Adders and Flames were both an experience in frustration and futility. My teams were noticeably less likely to make themselves useful and would often blow even large early leads with sloppy play and wasting their time doing stupid stuff. Even nerfing the losers' XP didn't change this. I see little reason to think removing XP entirely would somehow magically fix the problem, which existed long before XP in PVP did.

[Ayerinn]

If EXP were removed, a good percent would drop it, and even more when they get the glams. I know I would.

2nd and 3rd exp is already nerfed. Leave it at that.

It would be disappointing, but I would be fine with it as I only use PvP as a means to get easy tomes just like in HW.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I've said it over and over, but thanks to Frontline Freelancer (that is, GC Restrictions finally removed, but overshadowed by the Garo event), GCs really don't matter at all anymore. I'm not going to somehow play better or worse just because I'm in Maelstrom now. And if in a premade with friends, we're not going to play better or worse if we're all put in the Adders or Flames. There is no substitute for skilled play. There is nothing more fun than skilled play. But unfortunately, as long as SE won't do something about the bigger issues and keeps applying band-aid fixes to the problem, most players aren't going to bother getting better if they get a fat participation award.

And even if there's a sudden decline in participation, at LEAST those who remain you know are there truly for the sake of competition and active enjoyment.

[Nixxe]

I've said it over and over, but thanks to Frontline Freelancer (that is, GC Restrictions finally removed, but overshadowed by the Garo event), GCs really don't matter at all anymore. I'm not going to somehow play better or worse just because I'm in Maelstrom now. And if in a premade with friends, we're not going to play better or worse if we're all put in the Adders or Flames. There is no substitute for skilled play. There is nothing more fun than skilled play. But unfortunately, as long as SE won't do something about the bigger issues and keeps applying band-aid fixes to the problem, most players aren't going to bother getting better if they get a fat participation award.

And even if there's a sudden decline in participation, at LEAST those who remain you know are there truly for the sake of competition and active enjoyment.

Freelancer isn't on by default, despite what some people claim. Therefore it's reasonable to think that GC still matters to some extent, though given the relatively low penalty for switching, it probably doesn't matter as much as faction might in games like WoW or whatever. You really can't argue with a 40 match win rate spanning months and a 40 match win rate spanning a couple of weeks that are so drastically different. Like you said, I'm not going to somehow play better or worse just because I'm on Maelstrom now, so what accounts for the drastic increase in win rate immediately following joining Maelstrom and turning off Freelancer? It's worth noting that Freelancer dumped me on Maelstrom a whopping one time when I was part of Adders, so it seems Maelstrom rarely needs to pull from the Freelancer pool to fill its teams.

If you really want to ensure people are there for the sake of competition and enjoyment, then remove all rewards, even Wolf Marks, from PVP. After all, until you do that there's always a chance that someone could be there seeking only to gain something from winning.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Nice try, but wolf marks have been pretty useless for the longest time.

How did I have a full set of Aiming Garo gear on day one of 3.5? Because there was nothing else to spend the 20K wolf marks I already had on.
How did I get the Nue Togi (the new Aiming body added in 4.0) right away during early access? Capped wolf marks and nothing else to spend it on.

Did I grind for those marks? Nope. I just played. And enjoyed PvP. I'm probably capped again right now and don't even realize it, both because I'm not doing it JUST for wolf marks or tomes, and because I actively like PvP.

Well before Garo/Stormblood, PvP already had an active, but small playerbase. AFKing was VERY minimal if it even happened at all (because who wants to do nothing and get kicked when you waited so long to get in), wolf marks weren't awarded in nearly as high amounts, tomes were available, yes, but almost every other PvE instance awarded more anyways, and the larger reason anyone played PvP content was because they actually liked PvP. Most players only actively hunt when there's a new incentive to be gained from it, but take that away, and people who love hunts will still be hunting. PvP would be no different, and we need to stop fearmongering the idea that it will die without XP awards.

[Nixxe]

Nice try, but wolf marks have been pretty useless for the longest time.

How did I have a full set of Aiming Garo gear on day one of 3.5? Because there was nothing else to spend the 20K wolf marks I already had on.
How did I get the Nue Togi (the new Aiming body added in 4.0) right away during early access? Capped wolf marks and nothing else to spend it on.

Did I grind for those marks? Nope. I just played. And enjoyed PvP. I'm probably capped again right now and don't even realize it, both because I'm not doing it JUST for wolf marks or tomes, and because I actively like PvP.

Well before Garo/Stormblood, PvP already had an active, but small playerbase. AFKing was VERY minimal if it even happened at all (because who wants to do nothing and get kicked when you waited so long to get in), wolf marks weren't awarded in nearly as high amounts, tomes were available, yes, but almost every other PvE instance awarded more anyways, and the larger reason anyone played PvP content was because they actually liked PvP. Most players only actively hunt when there's a new incentive to be gained from it, but take that away, and people who love hunts will still be hunting. PvP would be no different, and we need to stop fearmongering the idea that it will die without XP awards.

*Wolf Marks have been pretty useless for the longest time to people who have already PVP'd so much that they bought everything they can buy (ie the people who already got the reward)

So no, even Wolf Marks have to go. After all, otherwise someone might just be there for glamour purposes.

People seem to pretty consistently state that before the Garo event PVP was basically dead, which suggests that rewards in some form, whether they be glamour or XP or whatever, are largely responsible for PVP having functional queues.