PvP AFK

[Nixxe]

I've said it over and over, but thanks to Frontline Freelancer (that is, GC Restrictions finally removed, but overshadowed by the Garo event), GCs really don't matter at all anymore. I'm not going to somehow play better or worse just because I'm in Maelstrom now. And if in a premade with friends, we're not going to play better or worse if we're all put in the Adders or Flames. There is no substitute for skilled play. There is nothing more fun than skilled play. But unfortunately, as long as SE won't do something about the bigger issues and keeps applying band-aid fixes to the problem, most players aren't going to bother getting better if they get a fat participation award.

And even if there's a sudden decline in participation, at LEAST those who remain you know are there truly for the sake of competition and active enjoyment.

Freelancer isn't on by default, despite what some people claim. Therefore it's reasonable to think that GC still matters to some extent, though given the relatively low penalty for switching, it probably doesn't matter as much as faction might in games like WoW or whatever. You really can't argue with a 40 match win rate spanning months and a 40 match win rate spanning a couple of weeks that are so drastically different. Like you said, I'm not going to somehow play better or worse just because I'm on Maelstrom now, so what accounts for the drastic increase in win rate immediately following joining Maelstrom and turning off Freelancer? It's worth noting that Freelancer dumped me on Maelstrom a whopping one time when I was part of Adders, so it seems Maelstrom rarely needs to pull from the Freelancer pool to fill its teams.

If you really want to ensure people are there for the sake of competition and enjoyment, then remove all rewards, even Wolf Marks, from PVP. After all, until you do that there's always a chance that someone could be there seeking only to gain something from winning.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Nice try, but wolf marks have been pretty useless for the longest time.

How did I have a full set of Aiming Garo gear on day one of 3.5? Because there was nothing else to spend the 20K wolf marks I already had on.
How did I get the Nue Togi (the new Aiming body added in 4.0) right away during early access? Capped wolf marks and nothing else to spend it on.

Did I grind for those marks? Nope. I just played. And enjoyed PvP. I'm probably capped again right now and don't even realize it, both because I'm not doing it JUST for wolf marks or tomes, and because I actively like PvP.

Well before Garo/Stormblood, PvP already had an active, but small playerbase. AFKing was VERY minimal if it even happened at all (because who wants to do nothing and get kicked when you waited so long to get in), wolf marks weren't awarded in nearly as high amounts, tomes were available, yes, but almost every other PvE instance awarded more anyways, and the larger reason anyone played PvP content was because they actually liked PvP. Most players only actively hunt when there's a new incentive to be gained from it, but take that away, and people who love hunts will still be hunting. PvP would be no different, and we need to stop fearmongering the idea that it will die without XP awards.

[Nixxe]

Nice try, but wolf marks have been pretty useless for the longest time.

How did I have a full set of Aiming Garo gear on day one of 3.5? Because there was nothing else to spend the 20K wolf marks I already had on.
How did I get the Nue Togi (the new Aiming body added in 4.0) right away during early access? Capped wolf marks and nothing else to spend it on.

Did I grind for those marks? Nope. I just played. And enjoyed PvP. I'm probably capped again right now and don't even realize it, both because I'm not doing it JUST for wolf marks or tomes, and because I actively like PvP.

Well before Garo/Stormblood, PvP already had an active, but small playerbase. AFKing was VERY minimal if it even happened at all (because who wants to do nothing and get kicked when you waited so long to get in), wolf marks weren't awarded in nearly as high amounts, tomes were available, yes, but almost every other PvE instance awarded more anyways, and the larger reason anyone played PvP content was because they actually liked PvP. Most players only actively hunt when there's a new incentive to be gained from it, but take that away, and people who love hunts will still be hunting. PvP would be no different, and we need to stop fearmongering the idea that it will die without XP awards.

*Wolf Marks have been pretty useless for the longest time to people who have already PVP'd so much that they bought everything they can buy (ie the people who already got the reward)

So no, even Wolf Marks have to go. After all, otherwise someone might just be there for glamour purposes.

People seem to pretty consistently state that before the Garo event PVP was basically dead, which suggests that rewards in some form, whether they be glamour or XP or whatever, are largely responsible for PVP having functional queues.

[Shut]

People seem to pretty consistently state that before the Garo event PVP was basically dead, which suggests that rewards in some form, whether they be glamour or XP or whatever, are largely responsible for PVP having functional queues.

I'll probably sound redundant but most people ignore how much GC restriction hurt pvp's queue time, this was the thing that players asked for its removal the most over the past years for a good reason. They only removed it because they knew that garo event would have been impossible with GC restrictions, or at least with worse queue outside of actives hours.

People seem to forgot also 2 other moments that lead to an influx of lots of new players: before 3.1, and after shatter got released. We had decent queue times back then at least during active hours, thx to the amount of new players that came. But when they added new content, people ofc changed their priorities, but pvp could have survived even with only 24m match if there wasn't GC restriction that prevented any casual participation back then.

SO yeah, just saying that at those times, PvP stayed alive for a few month without any new reward added, but the classic tomestones. GC restriction was the worst thing that ever happened to PvP until now. I started PvP at the beginning of 3.0 and had my fair share of FL before garo event, enough to be able to tell what wasn't working in PvP back then, and I can tell it wasn't only the lack of players: this is basically a meme.

PS:
Freelancer IS active by default since 4.0, it's written on patchnotes:

The Duty Finder has been adjusted as follows:

The Raid Finder interface has been combined with the Duty Finder interface.

The Frontline Freelancer option under Duty Finder Settings has been enabled by default.

Also, premades, even if it's 2 people, have freelancer enabled and cannot be disabled, it's impossible for them to choose any GC. Saying that win/loose is because of GC is irrelevant since garo and even more since SB.

[TankHunter678]

PS:
Freelancer IS active by default since 4.0,

My freelancer was off by default. Unless its only on by default for people who joined the game after the 4.0 launch. Hell I never even knew of the function.

Just every time I went into pvp solo I was an Adder, if I went in with a party I would wind up somewhere.

[Rilasha]

My freelancer was off by default.

Mine was and still is as well. Only my Join Party in Progress was active.

Anyway, long time PvPer and 40% win rate as an Adder. Honestly, it's about who you get on your team that determines if you win or not nowadays. I can tell that Aether Maelstrom are the most popular among premades and old skilled PvPers, so that's the reason why they seem to win a lot. I've been coming in second a lot in the past week, but overall that's the position I've least been in since I played on that character.

[Shut]

My freelancer was off by default. Unless its only on by default for people who joined the game after the 4.0 launch. Hell I never even knew of the function.

Just every time I went into pvp solo I was an Adder, if I went in with a party I would wind up somewhere.

And mine was on by default when I queud the first day of SB for FL. I cannot say it's because I was active before since it would turn off by itself if you log off or on another condition iirc.
Can't tell if there's any exception/bug, but it's intended by SE to be set on by default.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

PvP was "dead" for all the people that refused to try it, usually under word-of-mouth falsehoods and general dissuasion (i.e. "lol there's PvP in this game?", "PvP is full of toxic elitist jerks", "there's too many buttons", etc.). I played and enjoyed it with MANY people well before Garo.

You also fail to realize Wolf Marks are only easier to cap now that you get 1000/500/250 per win, as opposed to the much lower amounts given before. And "for glamour purposes" is a flat argument to make as - again, before when you REALLY had to PvP a lot to afford items - few people who simply wanted a glamour item were going to stick around long enough to farm up 12,500 wolf marks for a body piece (as opposed to the now 4000 they cost. That's 4 first place wins. 2 if you do Frontline Roulettes). Not to mention, if they get rid of it, it's hardly a loss. Non-PvPers obviously won't miss it, and long-time PvPers just let them pile up. PvP gear often came far and few between anyways. Before 3.5, the last time there was any new gear was in 3.25. If you want to try and argue the point of "get rid of ALL rewards then!", use a stronger argument than Wolf Marks.

And lastly, don't try to tell me of all people that the rewards are the reason for functional queues. Those of us who've been doing it for a long time, those of us who knew that GC imbalances were a large reason for lengthy queues, know that it was Frontline Freelancer - GC restriction bypass - that improved the queues. . . like we said it would for 2 years. If out of 72 people in queue, 40 were Mael, 20 were Flames, and 12 were Adders, you weren't getting a match any time soon. Now that it doesn't matter which GC you belong to, as long as 72 people queue (hell, even if just 24 queue), you're in.

[Nixxe]

PvP was "dead" for all the people that refused to try it, usually under word-of-mouth falsehoods and general dissuasion (i.e. "lol there's PvP in this game?", "PvP is full of toxic elitist jerks", "there's too many buttons", etc.). I played and enjoyed it with MANY people well before Garo.

You also fail to realize Wolf Marks are only easier to cap now that you get 1000/500/250 per win, as opposed to the much lower amounts given before. And "for glamour purposes" is a flat argument to make as - again, before when you REALLY had to PvP a lot to afford items - few people who simply wanted a glamour item were going to stick around long enough to farm up 12,500 wolf marks for a body piece (as opposed to the now 4000 they cost. That's 4 first place wins. 2 if you do Frontline Roulettes). Not to mention, if they get rid of it, it's hardly a loss. Non-PvPers obviously won't miss it, and long-time PvPers just let them pile up. PvP gear often came far and few between anyways. Before 3.5, the last time there was any new gear was in 3.25. If you want to try and argue the point of "get rid of ALL rewards then!", use a stronger argument than Wolf Marks.

And lastly, don't try to tell me of all people that the rewards are the reason for functional queues. Those of us who've been doing it for a long time, those of us who knew that GC imbalances were a large reason for lengthy queues, know that it was Frontline Freelancer - GC restriction bypass - that improved the queues. . . like we said it would for 2 years. If out of 72 people in queue, 40 were Mael, 20 were Flames, and 12 were Adders, you weren't getting a match any time soon. Now that it doesn't matter which GC you belong to, as long as 72 people queue (hell, even if just 24 queue), you're in.

I was hardly the one focusing on Wolf Marks. That was you, who seemed to balk at the suggestion of actually removing all rewards, as opposed to just XP. I only named them to emphasize that when I said all, I meant all. No Frontline roulette, no tomestones, no XP, no Wolf Marks, ranked Feast rewards, no nothing. Let PVP live or die solely on its merits as intrinsically enjoyable repetitive content fueled by a supposedly passionate following.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I was hardly the one focusing on Wolf Marks. That was you, who seemed to balk at the suggestion of actually removing all rewards, as opposed to just XP. I only named them to emphasize that when I said all, I meant all. No Frontline roulette, no tomestones, no XP, no Wolf Marks, ranked Feast rewards, no nothing. Let PVP live or die solely on its merits as intrinsically enjoyable repetitive content fueled by a supposedly passionate following.

Okay, let's play that card.

Do the same thing for Expert roulette and watch it die. Why? Because that's entirely WHY people run Expert roulette. Sure, there's someone out there that loves dungeons just that much, but then they could just queue for their favorite ones over and over, regardless of any bonuses. The difference here is that where PvP gives tomes, Expert and plenty of other PvE content gives more. So what WAS an active PvPer doing it for? Not wolf marks. You were capped. Not XP, there was none to get back then. Frontline Roulette? Everyone was playing Shatter anyways. Until Wonderous Tails, you were getting a Shatter match no matter what. Ranked Feast rewards? Hey guess what the prize was every other season? THE SAME THING. And people would still compete. Tomes? It'd take several matches to equal one roulette. If you wanted tomes THAT BAD, you weren't gonna PvP for them. Nice bonus to have - for an endgame activity - but hardly the big draw.

Thing is, you're trying to take it to the extreme of removing all rewards. Few people afked for tomes, especially when there were better options. Or is that common behavior in dungeons and raids? I've pinpointed the fact that afking and leeching wasn't anywhere near as big a problem until XP was being given. And even then, it's STILL not the best source. There's no need to go to extremes, unless of course you're prepared to see it applied across the board.