SAM out classing all other DPS

[Lelila38]

If you nerf Sam then what the point of bringing a samurai when you can bring ninja which offer slashing debuff and trick attack!?!?!?!?!?! Ever think of that!?!?!? Ninja dps is pretty close to samurai if they got nerfed you can just delete samurai lol

Most people don't want Sam to be nerfed, by all rights it should be strongest. Problem is just how much stronger than every other job it is. Personally I'd like Sam still to be on top, but close the gap to other dps, the way it stands now, Sam will more or less be mandatory for savage progression and no class should be mandatory.
That being said, I'm aware of the balancing issues it would create to bring all other dps closer to Sam levels. Still, as it is now, it's not fair.

[Ryaz]

Most people don't want Sam to be nerfed, by all rights it should be strongest. Problem is just how much stronger than every other job it is. Personally I'd like Sam still to be on top, but close the gap to other dps, the way it stands now, Sam will more or less be mandatory for savage progression and no class should be mandatory.
That being said, I'm aware of the balancing issues it would create to bring all other dps closer to Sam levels. Still, as it is now, it's not fair.

Ninja will always be mandatory. Bard will always be mandatory.

I think Sam will be less mandatory than those two at this point.

[Draven]

Most people don't want Sam to be nerfed, by all rights it should be strongest. Problem is just how much stronger than every other job it is. Personally I'd like Sam still to be on top, but close the gap to other dps, the way it stands now, Sam will more or less be mandatory for savage progression and no class should be mandatory.
That being said, I'm aware of the balancing issues it would create to bring all other dps closer to Sam levels. Still, as it is now, it's not fair.

Rights? What rights? Sam has no rights above any other job to be better at dps. That's like saying Paladin should be the best tank because they have the right to it! like wtf

[Lastelli]

Rights? What rights? Sam has no rights above any other job to be better at dps. That's like saying Paladin should be the best tank because they have the right to it! like wtf

Of course SAM should have a higher personal dps since it has no utility. What are you talking about? It should be equal to MNK personal dps plus the estimated raid dps gains due to brotherhood (plus something more because of mantra, depending on how difficult healing is in a particular instance, remember that MNK was in a8s world first only because of mantra) and NIN personal dps + TA synergies, since they are all melee jobs that compete for the same spot in a party. Similarly, DRG personal dps should be lower by an amount explained by (half of) disembowel contribution to BRD/MCH personal dps, battle litany and dragon sight. This is how you balance melee jobs.

[HoLoFoNo]

It should be equal to MNK personal dps plus the estimated raid dps gains due to brotherhood (plus something more because of mantra, depending on how difficult healing is in a particular instance, remember that MNK was in a8s world first only because of mantra) and NIN personal dps + TA synergies, since they are all melee jobs that compete for the same spot in a party. Similarly, DRG personal dps should be lower by an amount explained by (half of) disembowel contribution to BRD/MCH personal dps, battle litany and dragon sight. This is how you balance melee jobs.

Except they should stop making pseudo support dps and making things harder to balance for themselves and just keep that job for the current support DPS. DRG is just a melee BRD atm, which explains why it also performs worse than it in actual fights. Just keep the offensive utility to one per class, and then balance them based on flexibility.


Edit: Clarification in italics.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Sam will more or less be mandatory for savage progression and no class should be mandatory.

Mandatory: NIN, RDM, BRD, PLD, AST.

Optional: SAM, MNK, DRG, MCH, BLM, SMN, SCH, DRK, WAR, WHM.

I'd say SAM is just about the least mandatory of any job in game. Being honest.

Rights? What rights? Sam has no rights above any other job to be better at dps. That's like saying Paladin should be the best tank because they have the right to it! like wtf

SAM specializes purely in dealing personal damage. All other dps jobs have some raid wide utility that increases the raids dps, and thus their own dps contribution. SAM being any weaker than it is means that it's the new 2.X DRG, and a significant loss to take over rather jobs, rather than a negligible loss.

[Karja]

SAM specializes purely in dealing personal damage. All other dps jobs have some raid wide utility that increases the raids dps, and thus their own dps contribution. SAM being any weaker than it is means that it's the new 2.X DRG, and a significant loss to take over rather jobs, rather than a negligible loss.

Black mage is the only job without raid wide utility. SAM is a close second with Slashing debuff since two other jobs also have slashing.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Black mage is the only job without raid wide utility. SAM is a close second with Slashing debuff since two other jobs also have slashing.

Slashing debuff is not utility you can attribute to a Samurai for the simple reason that it's required for a NIN to maximize their own damage. So to say SAM has raid utility when it's paired with something else that has said utility is worth nothing more than a laugh.

After all, unlike Samurai, NIN is in fact mandatory and has a slashing debuff with much higher effective uptime, making Samurai redundant at best and worthless at worst.

[Karja]

Slashing debuff is not utility you can attribute to a Samurai for the simple reason that it's required for a NIN to maximize their own damage. So to say SAM has raid utility when it's paired with something else that has said utility is worth nothing more than a laugh.

After all, unlike Samurai, NIN is in fact mandatory and has a slashing debuff with much higher effective uptime, making Samurai redundant at best and worthless at worst.

Doesn't change the fact that you claimed that SAM is the only job without raid wide utility which is wrong since BLM has no raid utility.

[Eyvhokan]

SAM specializes purely in dealing personal damage. All other dps jobs have some raid wide utility that increases their own dps slightly. SAM being any weaker than it is means that it's the new 2.X DRG, and a significant loss to take over rather jobs, rather than a negligible loss.

That's because the whole design idea of selfish DPS is flawed.

Utility that makes them deal more damage is synergy (or combo), not actual utility like ressing or resource re-stocking, or worse is really a dependency (think DRG piercing debuff with BRD and MCH).


If 'selfish dps' is high enough that 'synergy dps' is less, then the synergy DPS is just a liability because it has more moving parts and is less resilient and makes it completely pointless. If the 'synergy parts' are worth it, the 'selfish dps' is automatically less desirable. In the abstract, it is conceptually not possible to balance.

With different classes, some fall in to place in that paradigm and others don't. That's why in your list the mandatory ones are NIN, RDM and BRD - because they actually fit the synergy paradigm in terms of damage (or BRD having actual utility, and self resilience to boss mechanics*). The ones that don't (most poignantly DRG and MCH) are less desirable to SAM because even with their synergy, they don't provide the numbers in damage, nor do they provide actual 'utility'.

*another factor that is overlooked over raw numbers is resilience to boss mechanics, mostly from DPS loss from moving, but individual class mechanics will play into this. From what I hear, SAM is actually a pretty good recoverer for melee dps.