Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

[LegoTechnic]

It has been happening. it's been said earlier in this thread that people are getting kicked from WC, getting kicked from DS, we had a blow up last night in the Novice Network because a WHM got kicked 5 minutes into a dungeon. this is really happening. if you want to not admit it or not, it's been noted here on this thread that WHMs are getting kicked.

So you have never seen it. that's good, but others are seeing it. we're noting it down that it's happening. You can say Bull if you want, but this is happening. people are being excluded for playing White Mage, for whatever reasons, without reasons sometimes, other times, it's harassment of "Play AST or Q as DPS" (again, far earlier in this massive thread.)




It is disgusting, and the problem is, we are seeing it. we're worrying, Mentors are trying to calm Returners and Sprouts Alike (at least on Ultros) someone has noted in an earlier post that they were told "You will have to change from WHM in SB or find another group". this is where people believing that "meta" is "Gospel" because a select few use this compositions.

This also goes back to things "Why Bring a WHM when you can have Chain Stratagem and Balance?" that's been posted. i'm not saying good things might not be coming from WHM, but with what was released, the toxicity is growing as more and more people think that WHM is inferior. (RAW current numbers show that they can be, not posting them again, do your reading folks)

I'm glad the EU servers are doing well and aren't having this issue. I'm not shocked it's started on NA servers, but we can only hope to wait it out, hope something changes and it doesn't become worse.

( ok NOW i can post, yay)

Just couldn't resist that little jab at America, could you?

If WHMs are being kicked now, then it's likely for entirely separate reasons because there is nothing wrong with the class composition as things currently stand. Either the person running the group is a fool, the WHM itself is bad and they don't want to deal with it, or someone's personality is contentious. There are tons of reasons for party discord, but having it be because "WHM changes in SB will be bad" is probably the stupidest thing available and people like that should be immediately put on your block list. The exception to this is speedrun of parser-push groups, and this is just one of the evils that comes along with FFLogs as DPS seek to preen their feathers with Balance pushes. PLDs face the same issue here given WAR's current benefits, and it's a situation where you either have to deal with the fact that not all classes are homogenized and play the one with the sought benefit, or look for groups that don't have "epeen" as a primary focus.

That said there is merit in asking your WHM to consider changing profession for progression raiding if a perceived advantage is apparent, and if you are hellbent on server first then I encourage you to give it some thought. If competition is your group's driving force then you want to maximize your synergy and you should be 100% adaptable if you intend to meet that focus. This is no different to people asking MNKs to switch to DRG and NIN or BRDs to change to MCHs. It is not necessary to do so, and you should always play a class you enjoy, but keeping an open mind about other roles is good for the group's goal of playing as hardcore as possible. Regardless if the group is demanding that you do something you specifically are not wanting to do, then find another group; this is a video game and you need to play it with the goal of maximizing enjoyment. If that enjoyment is not coming from the current state of your party, then do whatever you need to do in order to work it out with your raid leader, who is often just another player trying to enjoy the game themself, of if you find them to be impossible to work with then find a more accommodating party.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

So some PvP spells for WHM was posted in the JP deb blog. And if what I'm reading is right, it seems like 1 lily is 10%, 2 is 25%, and 3 is 50% CD reduction.

I can't read Japanese, so I can only trust the translations and assume that's what it says, but if this is true, then it seems the lilies was made more for PvP than PvE.

Honestly I didn't even consider it before, but spamming Cures and shortening CDs sounds perfect for PvP, where healing is a lot more active and unpredictable and you need to act fast.

I hate to even think this, but perhaps lilies was created for PvP, and then ported over to PvE...... I can only hope that's not true because PvP and PvE are two completely different playstyles.

[LegoTechnic]

So some PvP spells for WHM was posted in the JP deb blog. And if what I'm reading is right, it seems like 1 lily is 10%, 2 is 25%, and 3 is 50% CD reduction.

I can't read Japanese, so I can only trust the translations and assume that's what it says, but if this is true, then it seems the lilies was made more for PvP than PvE.

Honestly I didn't even consider it before, but spamming Cures and shortening CDs sounds perfect for PvP, where healing is a lot more active and unpredictable and you need to act fast.

I hate to even think this, but perhaps lilies was created for PvP, and then ported over to PvE...... I can only hope that's not true because PvP and PvE are two completely different playstyles.

PvP abilities will be almost entirely different from PvE ones in SB. Don't even consider them to be related. And before you go suspecting that "PvP abilities are effecting my PvE", look at it instead that they "had an idea for a new playstyle mechanic and implemented a version in both PvE and PvP".

[MercuryD]

I am going to place some suggestions I think would add utility while keeping in heart the white mages image.

Purifying Waters
Ability
Cast: Recast: Range: Radius:
Instant 120 30y 8y

Deals water damage to all enemies near target with a potency of 600.
Additional Effect: Restores HP of target and all party members nearby target.
Cure Potency: 600
Additional Effect: Removes a single detrimental effect from target and all party members nearby.
Note: Potency could scale with the amount of lilies. In that case start at 150 for potency and when you have 3 end in 600. Recast time should remain though.

• It should cast with a visual effect similar to Terras flood in Dissidia.
• Adds a much needed powerful water spell.
• Wouldn't miss melee DPS like Cure III.
• Benefits WHM in Solo for DPS.
• Unable to single target or spam esuna yet mitigates its need.

This would honestly be the ideal use for lilies to strengthen potency

[Dacen_Drg]

your CDs' POTENTIAL to be available sooner isn't the kind of RNG that CRIPPLES anything............ What you could have argued instead is : in a well scripted fight, where you have all your cds mapped out for each mech, having your CDs being available sooner will pose no benefits (but also poses no detriment...); making "recast reduction," useless to YOU (well planned player that you are).

You hit the nail on the head, when mapping out cooldowns, having the available sooner, while not being a detriment is not a BENEFIT, thus making the new core mechanic that whm gets a complete gimmick that supplies no BENEFIT. That is what it comes down to, yes it sucks that the lilies are rng off of a skill that optimal play minimizes the casting of but then also that what they give very rarely will be of benefit, thus not even encouraging it to be used.

[Noka]

snip

1st: It forces a certain style of play to take advantage of the job's new offerings.

2nd: You're incentivized to choose to not use Tetragrammaton or Assize to avoid wasting your lillies because there's no way to control if you use a Lilly or not.

3rd: The capstone being focused on a RNG resource (Confessions) generated solely from Cure I/II is awful, ngl.

Yes, Lillies are RNG and useless rn. But it's important to show SE that if they decide to buff Lillies, they need to systematically reduce the RNG to match.

4th: It is crippling, when WHM's viability is seen as mediocre. It forces a decision: make a wasteful choice or refuse to use oGCDs until they have full Lillies. Think "Thrifty vs Balance-Only AST" debate.

Not saying this is the end of days, but I am saying that compared to the utility and resources given to SCH and AST, WHM's Lillies are meh.

It's like Spear. Potentially useful, but ultimately useless.

[Reiryuu]

As many have already said, I will just repeat for emphasis:

* Why bring a WHM when you can have The Balance and Chain Strategem and not loose any healing power?

* Why, when SMNs have been told over and over again that they can't have more egis for this very reason, is there such a clear discrepancy in the number of skills and abilities a WHM has over SCH and AST? This number shrinks even smaller when skills are consolidated.

* Why did we lose the only native mitigation spell we were going to have in 4.0 (stoneskin) only to have it replaced at 66 with a far inferior skill leaving us with nothing 1-66? We knew we would be losing protect to cross-role, but why did we have to lose stoneskin?

* Why has SE continued to distribute our spells (now removing) without giving us anything to replace them?

* Why is our new job mechanic revolved around something an AST can do with a single card, but better?! Theirs works for all abilities used within 30 seconds, ours works for ONE.

* How is our level 70 spell supposed to help us when it can only heal the people we've healed most likely to full HP within 30 seconds of said heal? In the vast majority of all cases, that person is going to be either one or both tanks.

Just couldn't resist that little jab at America, could you?

While I don't want to butt in on a fight, I just wanted to chime in that Valefor (JP server) is also beginning to have some PF groups bar WHM from 4.0 raid groups advertising for AST/SCH instead. So it's not just the NA servers this is happening on. Just neutral information, I'm not trying to pick a side.

YET ANOTHER ERRONEOUS ULTIMATUM!! Who in their right healing mind would ever think those two outcomes are in opposition??? (if the system stays as we know so far) you're not SUPPOSE to be wasted GCDs JUST to get procs.... you'll cure NATURALLY (just like you do now....), it just so happens when you do it naturally in the future, all your cure IIs needed in the fight will proc a lily 100% of the time. Though, I do agree the lily system is extremely passive and unpredictably rewarding* (recast reduction isn't horrible but it isn't game changing either).

The problem with this idea, is skills that you're going to use between those cures and getting lilies are going to consume all of your lilies so saving them for the oGCD you actually want to shorten isn't practical.

[javid]

The problem with this idea, is skills that you're going to use between those cures and getting lilies are going to consume all of your lilies so saving them for the oGCD you actually want to shorten isn't practical.

you did just quote my saying it will be UNPREDICTABLY rewarding? which means, yes you won't have the control over it in the most optimal way. Which I agree makes it even more of a passive system. I would like a system that forces you to interact with it (more than just for a stoneskin every 60 sec).

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Honestly? The more I dwell on White Mage, the more I feel it's primary issue is... it doesn't feel like a mainline job. Compared to Scholar, and especially, Astro, it almost feels like White Mage is the class you promptly upgrade once you've grown accustom to healing. There just isn't an identity or sense of progression. This plagued both White Mage and Paladin throughout Heavensward. Unfortunately, only one of them received the long needed love.

[Keridwyn]

So some PvP spells for WHM was posted in the JP deb blog. And if what I'm reading is right, it seems like 1 lily is 10%, 2 is 25%, and 3 is 50% CD reduction.

If these values are also the same in PvE then I can start seeing value in them. If we know we have a 100% lily from cure 2 (and presumably procs from at least cure as well) the question becomes which skills need what reduction. Is 150s Benediction worth 3 casts of Cure 2?

We might all prefer the lilies give us something else but those CD reduction percentages are higher than what a lot of folks suggested as a fix.

That might tide us over for a couple months, long enough for them to design and test a couple of new skills to fix the gaps in our kit. We wouldn't be healthy but we wouldn't be in as dire of straights.