Kicked from DR Leveling because I don't slot Protect for low level dungeons?

[Miste]

Thank you very much for this. While reading through the discussion I was considering that with any Job using cross skills, if there were cross skills that have a situational application, a macro could be used to switch them in and out as needed - especially when the number of cross skills is limited by level.

No problem. It was cool to experiment with to see if it would work. In general it seems to be a great macro for healers who want both actions in low level dungeons.

You could even make a macro to fix your actions after you exit the instance as well to place them back where you want them to be.

Like after you exit...

/aaction "Cleric Stance" off
/wait 1
/aaction "Protect" on
/aaction "Cleric Stance" on

This removes Cleric Stance from slot one, then puts Protect in slot one, and then lastly puts Cleric Stance into slot two.

Thinking of making a quick video of the macro to show it and share it actually so that healers can use it if they want to have both.

[LineageRazor]

... THAT is what you consider the most important reason to have protect in slot 1?

Swaps current INT and MND attribute ratings, while increasing damage dealt by attack magic by 10%

I am well aware of these things. Remember that we are talking about dungeons under level 20. Talk of optimization and such is ludicrous. Just as Protect's protective boost is virtually meaningless, so too is Cleric's Stance's damage boost. Any possible optimization is sacrificed, if the tank spends more than five or so seconds waiting around for Protect. And let's not forget that generally this delay will be longer, because the tank will eventually begin a dialog. "You gonna cast Protect?" To which you have to answer "No," extending the delay even longer. And heaven help you if the tank starts to get ornery about it and declare you a "bad player" or whatever (not that this accusation is justifiable, but PUGs are not always populated by reasonable people).

No. Your sub-20 Cleric's Stance does not buy you more than ten seconds in a dungeon. Your run's speed is not going to be noticeably improved by DPSing in Cleric's Stance over DPSing raw, under level 20. Equip Protect, cast at the start, and get the run started promptly.

[trashmyego]

I'm sensing a little hostile against my post... well, guess it can't be helped. In the last page, i mention 1st impression means a lot with most people. I wasn't justifying their action, rather giving another view to the situation.

You were fabricating a view of the situation. You didn't read the thread, or check if I had any follow-up posts for context, and decided to create a fiction to pass off as a possibility everyone should contemplate. Like you said, first impressions matter.

[Miste]

Remember that we are talking about dungeons under level 20. Talk of optimization and such is ludicrous.

Then why are you saying that Protect is important enough to go into slot 1? If optimizing at that level is ludicrous to you then realistically you should be advocating that we don't need to use cross class skills at all for sub level 20 content.

It's a pretty noticeable contradiction because as soon as you choose cross class skills to use you are optimizing....

No. Your sub-20 Cleric's Stance does not buy you more than ten seconds in a dungeon. Your run's speed is not going to be noticeably improved by DPSing in Cleric's Stance over DPSing raw, under level 20.

So um...can you prove what you are claiming here? Even if you could prove it only saves 10 seconds those 10 seconds is still more efficient than without it so it didn't really help your argument.

Someone on the first page did math for Protect already if you missed it and it shows that Cleric Stance is the better choice even if it might not make a large difference as you are trying to claim.

The tank dies at the same speed with or without Protect in sub level 20 content, but when it comes to Cleric Stance it is completely black and white. Using Cleric Stance is better than not using Cleric Stance for healer DPS. That is just a simple fact.

Equip Protect, cast at the start, and get the run started promptly.

Why does anyone have to equip Protect for sub level 20 content? That is optimizing and you said it was ludicrous. :/

I already said in my last post to you that no matter what a healer puts in their first cross class slot the sub level 20 dungeon can be easily completed. With or without Protect? Easy. With or without Cleric Stance? Easy. No cross class skill at all? Still easy. This is why I said it is really a non-issue and the only difference is efficiency. So I'm not sure which one of us is actually more stuck on optimizing or not :x

One is just more efficient than the other due to the Protect at that level not mattering enough to allow the tank to survive more hits than without it. You still have to stop to heal at the same time with or without it so you might as well increase your DPS with Cleric Stance when you are able to use your damage spells.

Example:

#1 With Protect but no Cleric Stance
-Tank pulls
-You DPS (without Cleric)
-You get 8 DPS spells off before having to heal the tank

#2 With Cleric Stance but no Protect
-Tank pulls
-You DPS (with Cleric)
-You get 8 DPS spells off before having to heal the tank (...hmm same amount of casts...but with Cleric on you did more overall damage)

How can you argue that #1 is more efficient?? Makes no sense.

It's moot anyway since there is a simple way to get both Protect and Cleric Stance at the same time, it is just a placebo though for players who don't understand what I explained above in the example that Protect doesn't actually make any increase in efficiency (sub level 20) while Cleric Stance does no matter how small it might be. So I am still inclined to do it the more efficient way to see how much time can be saved because why would I purposefully gimp my play style to something less efficient?

Edit in case people misunderstand me: Let me make this totally clear. I only care about my own optimization. Other players can do as they wish and I will hold no ill will towards them. I encourage more efficient and skilled play but that is about it. So, encourage? Yes. Try to force? No. If you want Protect in slot 1 and you don't DPS as a healer no problem. I personally don't mind at all. I just know I have the experience and I enjoy it so I do it.

[Saito_S]

I didn't think there was any way to swap Cleric's back in, after casting Protect, without suffering the full cooldown on all your skills - it looks like there is. So, that mitigates this somewhat, but if anything, it makes it even more of a non-issue. There's no good reason to demand Protect be cast in freaking Satasha. It's not going to make ANY difference.

If someone wants to slot in Protect and forget Cleric's entirely, then sure, that's fine. If someone wants to slot in Cleric's and forget Protect entirely, that's fine too. If someone wants to swap and use both, again, no problem. This, again, is a non-issue.

Which was my original point: I overstated the benefits of having Cleric's Stance on in those dungeons in a previous post, I'll admit, because my main reason to post was this absurd notion that some people were putting out that if you don't cast Protect in the starter dungeons, then you're a lousy healer and/or are lazy and/or are putting your party at risk for selfish reasons, etc.

It's nonsense.

[Kosmos992k]

It's moot anyway since there is a simple way to get both Protect and Cleric Stance at the same time, it is just a placebo though for players who don't understand what I explained above in the example that Protect doesn't actually make any increase in efficiency (sub level 20) while Cleric Stance does no matter how small it might be. So I am still inclined to do it the more efficient way to see how much time can be saved because why would I purposefully gimp my play style to something less efficient?

OK, obviously Cleric Stance increases healer DPS, but describing a passive Physical and magical defence buff that's approximately a 10% buff is hardly a placebo.

Essentially it's a 30 minute long free defensive buff how is that a placebo?

Personally on my PLD, I'll be slotting Protect and StoneSkin in the same slot and using a macro to switch them out so I have SS during action and can cast Protect if the healer can/does not do it.

Which was my original point: I overstated the benefits of having Cleric's Stance on in those dungeons in a previous post, I'll admit, because my main reason to post was this absurd notion that some people were putting out that if you don't cast Protect in the starter dungeons, then you're a lousy healer and/or are lazy and/or are putting your party at risk for selfish reasons, etc.

It's nonsense.

From purely numerical point of view, yes I suppose. but the low level dungeons (talking sub-50) are the tutorial content in the game. Yoshi has said as much several times now. So you're supposed to be learning your job/role there.

Protect is but one tool among those that healers can use to protect the group. How you choose to roll is your business, but others may want/expect a healer to cast a proactive defensive buff before moving. I see no issue with that at all - especially given the macro that Miste posted. I'm by no means saying healers shouldn't use cleric stance or contribute, but I have to admit I really dislike the tendency among some veteran players to completely dismiss certain skills and content because they have moved 'beyond' that stage.

[Shurrikhan]

Precisely this. Some people just get nervous and angsty without Protect/Stoneskins, I guess, but there's really no logical reason for it.

I think most people are unaware that Defense, unlike Crit, is an absolute stat, and as such starts very low. Foresight is damn near pointless at low levels because of how little the value being multiplied is, whereas it surpasses Awareness for averaged mitigation around ilvl 130 or so. Or they forget that Defense is a stat at all, and figure that Protect gives an unscaling 15% bonus mitigation (which would then be huge, but still worth less than Cleric Stance).

I once had a tank in Snowcloak who refused to tank unless he got a Stoneskin. I proceeded to point out to him that Stoneskin is a fairly useless crossclass as a SCH, and he proceeded to become angry and leave.

I had the same thing a couple roulettes ago, until I pointed out that at his current CD usage, it would absorb only a single attack, whereas my Benefic II could crit for almost his entire HP pool (undergeared and underskilled). Not so subtle jab aside, he eventually stopped insisting on it.

[Saito_S]

OK, obviously Cleric Stance increases healer DPS, but describing a passive Physical and magical defence buff that's approximately a 10% buff is hardly a placebo.

Essentially it's a 30 minute long free defensive buff how is that a placebo?

Personally on my PLD, I'll be slotting Protect and StoneSkin in the same slot and using a macro to switch them out so I have SS during action and can cast Protect if the healer can/does not do it.

Because it does almost nothing.

Seriously, try it out, or just look at the math on it that was already done way back on page 1 (and others have brought this up later in the thread, as well): It literally mitigates like 3-4 damage per hit. It's not worth worrying over.

This is not to say that you SHOULDN'T use it, nor "You must use Cleric's in the starter dungeons!". But just that it really doesn't matter, and it's not worth worrying over, demanding someone else cast it, or any other such consternation.

[Canadane]

Any delay I usually find at the start of a low level dungeon goes away as soon as I use Clerics Stance.
I've never been asked to use Protect instead.

[Miste]

Essentially it's a 30 minute long free defensive buff how is that a placebo?

It's only a placebo in content level 20 or lower. For the main reason that these intro dungeons are very very low tuned since they are the first dungeons new players get.

Since it is tuned so low Protect, as I explained already, doesn't actually let the tank survive any longer than without it. So if you look back at my example maybe that will help you understand what I meant.

As you get to higher and higher dungeons the % mitigation that Protect gives eventually starts making a difference since the damage enemies output becomes more 'average skilled player' tuned instead of 'beginner skilled player' tuned.

Like Satasha, Tam Tara, and Copperbell all could have harder hitting enemies than they have now and still be easily completed by most players. They just made it a lot easier than that to ease new players into the game.

Sorry If I am not explaining this very well trying my best :x