Kicked from DR Leveling because I don't slot Protect for low level dungeons?

[Hayward]

-snip-

The subject at hand, as far as I'm concerned, is rather negligible and I couldn't care about it either way. The reasoning behind it, though, is something that should disturb players who expect new players to learn the basics of the game. That includes mitigation of damage however possible (Protect), repairing damage when necessary (Cure/Physick/Benefic), and assisting in damage when possible.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Huton is absolutely CRITICAL to a NIN's DPS output. Having Protect is... just about the opposite of "critical".

Correction: Huton is critical for a NIN to do their main job(killing all the things) effectively. Protect is critical for a healer to do their main job(supporting and keeping their party healthy) effectively. If you want to sacrifice your own role efficiency for the sake of 'muh deeps', it's not unreasonable to expect someone that is actually doing their best to perform their main role first and foremost to be peeved over laziness. Why should I perform optimally if you won't?(General you)

[Masekase_Hurricane]

I've noticed this most glaringly in Dun Scaith. To my mind, SMNs seem more likely to use Swiftcast+Resurrect in these raids than WHMs/SCHs, which is bothersome.

More likely that it was down after using it on a previous party members death.

[Saito_S]

The subject at hand, as far as I'm concerned, is rather negligible and I couldn't care about it either way. The reasoning behind it, though, is something that should disturb players who expect new players to learn the basics of the game. That includes mitigation of damage however possible (Protect), repairing damage when necessary (Cure/Physick/Benefic), and assisting in damage when possible.

O...kay. No one is saying anything "disturbing" regarding how new players will learn the basics of the game. No one is saying anything that really has much to do with new players learning the game at all. The subject at hand IS negligible, which was sort of the point myself and several others have been attempting to make. Not sure why you felt it necessary to post in a thread about that subject just to make sweeping generalizations on a tangentially related subject. Obviously mitigation and keeping the party alive are, always, the top priorities of healers. Nothing to disagree with that concept has been suggested.

Correction: Huton is critical for a NIN to do their main job(killing all the things) effectively.

So... what I said, phrased differently. Very compelling reason to put "correction", you sure offered a totally new spin on the description of Huton's role.

Protect is critical for a healer to do their main job(supporting and keeping their party healthy) effectively. If you want to sacrifice your own role efficiency for the sake of 'muh deeps', it's not unreasonable to expect someone that is actually doing their best to perform their main role first and foremost to be peeved over laziness. Why should I perform optimally if you won't?(General you)

Because Protect in Satasha isn't critical to anything, and leaving it behind to cross-class Cleric's instead isn't laziness. It's a choice, and a pretty inconsequential one.

[Dualgunner]

Swapping out a gcd action for a nongcd action doesn't incur a penalty. Swapping a nongcd for a gcd does.

Some people... so, if you refuse to use clerics, is it fine for me to not use Huton? After all, it's SUUUUUUCH a pain to keep up and it clearly doesn't do anything. /s

Do your job first and foremost, don't shirk it cause you don't wanna click one extra button.

You can huton in Sastasha while synched?

[Rongway]

Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, No Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 50
Maximum coblyn damage: 54
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 8-8

Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, With Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 50
Maximum coblyn damage: 55
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 8-8

Difference in damage between -Protect and +Protect: None
Effect of protect on tank survivability: None



Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, No Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 35
Maximum coblyn damage: 38
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 17-18


Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, With Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 32
Maximum coblyn damage: 35
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 18-20

Difference in damage between -Protect and +Protect: 3 damage (10%)
Effect of protect on tank survivability: 0-2 hits



Since tanks in Sastasha/Tam-tara/Copperbell will fall somewhere between these two scenarios, we can conclude that Protect will buy a tank between 0 and 2 extra hits.

The lower the tank's defense and HP, the closer this will be to 0.

The more damage a mob does per attack, the closer this will be to 0. Consider for example, a mob that hits a 629HP tank for 100 damage per hit. It can kill the tank with seven 100dmg hits, and it would still take seven hits if the damage were reduced as much as 10%.



Meanwhile, an AST with gear sync in Sastasha goes from dealing 37-40 damage per Malefic to 68-72, a gain of 80%-84%. This is not negligible. Expect the damage gain to increase with higher syncks.



Supporting screenshots

Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, No Protect



Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, With Protect



Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, No Protect



Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, With Protect



[u]Sastasha, AST, Gear Sync[u]

[Masekase_Hurricane]

LIES i seen the healer MANY TIMES let me drop down to around 10% by refusing prot over c stance and letting a fairy heal before they heal me I rather a defesive boost over a healers small damage boost you get below lvl 20. really doing 3-5 dps more isnt worth almost killing your tank

I know I can confirm that the fairy has healed the whole run and I never left clerics once, as for copperbell I think I cast 1 or 2 cures. When I am on AST be prepared to go to 10-20% every time essential dignity is up :P As this is all I find myself doing in sastasha.

Quote

Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, No Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 50
Maximum coblyn damage: 54
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 8-8

Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, With Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 50
Maximum coblyn damage: 55
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 8-8

Difference in damage between -Protect and +Protect: None
Effect of protect on tank survivability: None



Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, No Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 35
Maximum coblyn damage: 38
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 17-18


Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, With Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 32
Maximum coblyn damage: 35
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 18-20

Difference in damage between -Protect and +Protect: 3 damage (10%)
Effect of protect on tank survivability: 0-2 hits



Since tanks in Sastasha/Tam-tara/Copperbell will fall somewhere between these two scenarios, we can conclude that Protect will buy a tank between 0 and 2 extra hits.

The lower the tank's defense and HP, the closer this will be to 0.

The more damage a mob does per attack, the closer this will be to 0. Consider for example, a mob that hits a 629HP tank for 100 damage per hit. It can kill the tank with seven 100dmg hits, and it would still take seven hits if the damage were reduced as much as 10%.



Meanwhile, an AST with gear sync in Sastasha goes from dealing 37-40 damage per Malefic to 68-72, a gain of 80%-84%. This is not negligible. Expect the damage gain to increase with higher syncks.



Supporting screenshots

Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, No Protect



Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, With Protect



Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, No Protect



Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, With Protect



[u]Sastasha, AST, Gear Sync[u]

Thanks for providing this Rongway, although I'm still shocked that someone had to even go this far

[Rongway]

This should go without saying, but just to be clear, the conclusions in my previous post apply strictly to the pre-20 dungeons. Obviously, cast Protect from 20 and on, because the survivability granted by Protect goes up as base defense increases.

[worldofneil]

Obviously, cast Protect from 20 and on, because the survivability granted by Protect goes up as base defense increases.

Or just cast it in every dungeon because as people have demonstrated with a tiny bit of effort we have the ability to cast protect AND use Cleric Stance. Maybe it'll make no difference to the tank, but maybe it'll give them two extra hits before they die (your math...). Why are people taking the chance?

Plus thank you for doing the research on the figures, but what about when a pull goes bad and the tank doesn't have all the hate. It'd sure be nice if those other players had something mitigating their damage.

[Miste]

I've noticed this most glaringly in Dun Scaith. To my mind, SMNs seem more likely to use Swiftcast+Resurrect in these raids than WHMs/SCHs, which is bothersome.

Having healed Dun Scaith and also done it often on other jobs; Dun Scaith isn't a good place to determine if healers are slotting the proper cross class skills or not.

Having to raise so very often because of massive deaths makes it so Swiftcast is only up for some of the raises and other times you end up having to hard cast it. Not to mention you are more likely to notice a hard casted raise than a Swiftcast + Raise since one takes a long time to cast and the other is instant (and has no cast bar) and you'd have to be watching the healer/party list closely to see it (sometimes buffs get truncated by the party list as well if there are too many so a healer might use Swiftcast and you might not even see it)

Personally I am so quick with Swiftcast + Raise you would only have half a second to see the buff before I expire it since I already used the Raise on someone.

If a healer is not cross classing Swiftcast at 60 in one of the 5 slots available then their play style is the main issue. It is incorrect for a healer to not have Swiftcast in one of the slots at 60. So it is kind of like blaming experienced healers for other healers being inexperienced...it isn't my fault if another healer does not research their role to find out what is best at 60 and no one here is advocating to not cross class Swiftcast in one of the later slots so this doesn't have much to do with this topic or what most of us are discussing.