Kicked from DR Leveling because I don't slot Protect for low level dungeons?

[Masekase_Hurricane]

all i can say is 1 cast last 30 minutes(long as theres no deaths or wipes, which mostly and especially on a healer, is on you) I know it hardly does anything and you can math this all day, but 30s to cast a 30 minute buff, is hardly anything to complain about. Tank stops and goes "protect?" then healer types an essay for 10 minutes in party chat why they shouldnt have to because it doesnt do anything anyway. Healer gets kicked. Time wasted trying to reason with them. Just swap it. it takes less cd time than to type why you dont need to.

One person asked me and I typed clerics whilst auto running. That was the end of the discussion no moaning, no winging nothing. Had it been something that I was asked often, then I would create a macro and still be pressing it whilst auto running. Stop over reacting and to be honest I and many other higher levels would gladly accept a kick from Sastasha.

It really would be no loss to me and I hope they get a healer that actually gives them Protect, although as it shows in this thread the vast majority slot clerics so good luck to them.I personally aint gonna prat about swapping skills in and out on a basic dungeon. Regardless of how long or short the penalty actually is.

Plus thank you for doing the research on the figures, but what about when a pull goes bad and the tank doesn't have all the hate. It'd sure be nice if those other players had something mitigating their damage.

Are you playing the same game as me? When does a pull go wrong in Sastasha?

[Hasrat]

Plus thank you for doing the research on the figures, but what about when a pull goes bad and the tank doesn't have all the hate. It'd sure be nice if those other players had something mitigating their damage.

The other players, with lower defense, benefiting even less from Protect?
Besides, how bad can a pull really go in the first dungeons? Rhetorical. It's a bit silly to think there's some fine line where "Protect definitely could've prevented that wipe." Especially when, anecdotally, I've seen (and heard) runs where DPS don't even bother watching aggro, because everything burns fast enough that there's never any real danger.

[Immut]

The other players, with lower defense, benefiting even less from Protect?
Besides, how bad can a pull really go in the first dungeons? Rhetorical. It's a bit silly to think there's some fine line where "Protect definitely could've prevented that wipe." Especially when, anecdotally, I've seen (and heard) runs where DPS don't even bother watching aggro, because everything burns fast enough that there's never any real danger.

You haven't been playing this game long enough if you've never done a full no-tank or no-healer levelling dungeon run. Typically only the final boss in a levelling dungeon requires a healer, and none of them really require a tank.

[Neophyte]

One person asked me and I typed clerics whilst auto running. That was the end of the discussion no moaning, no winging nothing. Had it been something that I was asked often, then I would create a macro and still be pressing it whilst auto running. Stop over reacting and to be honest I and many other higher levels would gladly accept a kick from Sastasha.

Are you playing the same game as me? When does a pull go wrong in Sastasha?

This. All I'm hoping for is that after kicking me they get at least 2-3 other healers which refuse to switch protect in, so they may finally learn that they are wrong.

Funny Thing is, if they actually tried, they'd notice (while waiting for replacement) that you don't need a healer at all for those dungeons (especially if you carry max pots [~100 gil/piece] which gives every class a 1:07m (buffed) Equilibrium [~30% HP, capped at 2400, which is more than 30% of your HP up to until level 55(?), i.e. 8000 HP] ).
But well, I know those players, they won't move an inch, because waiting 5 mins and doing nothing is better than killing a few things in that time.

AS said, just kick me, I prefer higher dungeons like Dzemael or Aurum Vale (or even some of the HW leveling dungeons) much more anyway (or just get a 2 min primal fight, that's fine, too). In Aurum Vale i got holy at least.

But it's sad how totally uninformed and often also underperforming players try to entrench absolutly not sophisticated tactics, because of "reasons". If you don't get it, just stay silent and just get through the baby dungeon you're in. If you have an dpsing healer in Sastasha there is a 99% chance that this person neither need nor want your "advice", because (most of the times) it's some non-sense BS anyway.

[Magic-Mal]

A CNJ with cross-class skills has by far the most powerful healer DPS in the low levels. But weaker heals I think. A CNJ with Cleric Stance + Raging Strikes + Blood For Blood + Internal Release is a total aggro-stealer it's so strong. Alot stronger than actual DPS. To say it wouldn't make the dungeon faster is pure sillyness. I've CNJ-DPS'd many times. It's OP.

Lv50+ healers with Mind-only gear absolutely benefit from Cleric Stance in Lv15-20 dungeons. They have no INT!! So the difference is huge. The only time it isn't huge is for lv15-20 CNJ and even then it's big.

Also for Copperbell, Cleric Stance and Blizzard II would be my way to go(depending on Tank). If the tank does large pulls, Blizzard II + CS(55 potency) on in a 6 enemy pull is alot of DPS. 330 potency every Blizzard II. That is significantly more DPS any actual DPS besides a BLM can pull off at that level with Fire II.

Healer DPS is actually verrrry powerful in lv15-20 dungeons.

[Deus_ex_Machina]

You were fabricating a view of the situation. You didn't read the thread, or check if I had any follow-up posts for context, and decided to create a fiction to pass off as a possibility everyone should contemplate. Like you said, first impressions matter.

my dude... I see thread like these multiple times, asking approval to justify actions because "i want to be different idea" isn't selling to the majority. (in this case the party). Sorry that's just a fact of life. The TL: DR of my response simply said: "the majority (party) have a set mindset and conflict with yours. Your 1st impression didn't sit well with them (the majority) so you were kicked."

It doesn't matter that you were right or not. Take this experience as a lesson for the game (and life), so you won't get dismiss later. I'm sorry that my words aren't sympathetic to your post. And based on your respond, i don't think these words could reach you. So hey!!! I'll just /shug and work on my anima.

[Masekase_Hurricane]

It doesn't matter that you were right or not. Take this experience as a lesson for the game (and life), so you won't get dismiss later. I'm sorry that my words aren't sympathetic to your post. And based on your respond, i don't think these words could reach you. So hey!!! I'll just /shug and work on my anima

Yet you are way over reacting, this is the first time I have seen/heard of this happening in years. Even if this was an issue I would continue and take the kick,I would rather let them get sick of wait times. Just because a majority decide something in a party doesn't mean it is right. It's this stupid mentality of certain DPS or majority in party that decide to jump ahead and pull for new tanks just because they think it's easier, which 9/10 causes errors or deaths.

Tank tanks the dungeon and keeps hate = jobs done
Dps kill things fast = Jobs done
Healer has you alive = jobs done

Whatever else they do is a bonus, so mind your own business and get on with your own class.

[AsahinaMyLove]

lol really? Are people THAT Stupid? You can even do dungeons below lv30 even naked! o_O

[Kosmos992k]

**hiding good math**

Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, No Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 50
Maximum coblyn damage: 54
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 8-8

Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, With Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 50
Maximum coblyn damage: 55
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 8-8

Difference in damage between -Protect and +Protect: None
Effect of protect on tank survivability: None



Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, No Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 35
Maximum coblyn damage: 38
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 17-18


Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, With Protect
Minimum coblyn damage: 32
Maximum coblyn damage: 35
Coblyn hits to kill tank: 18-20

Difference in damage between -Protect and +Protect: 3 damage (10%)
Effect of protect on tank survivability: 0-2 hits



Since tanks in Sastasha/Tam-tara/Copperbell will fall somewhere between these two scenarios, we can conclude that Protect will buy a tank between 0 and 2 extra hits.

The lower the tank's defense and HP, the closer this will be to 0.

The more damage a mob does per attack, the closer this will be to 0. Consider for example, a mob that hits a 629HP tank for 100 damage per hit. It can kill the tank with seven 100dmg hits, and it would still take seven hits if the damage were reduced as much as 10%.

Meanwhile, an AST with gear sync in Sastasha goes from dealing 37-40 damage per Malefic to 68-72, a gain of 80%-84%. This is not negligible. Expect the damage gain to increase with higher syncks.



Supporting screenshots

Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, No Protect



Copperbell Mines, GLA, 395 HP, Naked, With Protect



Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, No Protect



Copperbell Mines, PLD, 629 HP, Gear Sync, With Protect



[u]Sastasha, AST, Gear Sync[u]

All of this is actually a good analysis of the failure to adequately balance Protect, and a great argument for re-balancing Protect to be more effective than it currently is, particularly as the base CNJ level of the player increases. Protect is one of the main skills CNJ learns early on, and it should be strong enough to be at least relevant to cast. Your math demonstrates that a *healer* is better off concentrating on damage rather than proactive healing in addition to the reactive healing they need to do anyway.

I'm not sure when it happened, but I thought that Protect was more effective than it seems it is now when ARR was a thing. It just seems like the effectiveness of Protect hasn't scaled with the power creep of players with regard to DPS.

Just from the point of view of lore and internal logic, it seems to me that one of the big things the game really needs is to rebalance jobs and content so that healers actually need to be good healers instead of cross training to be adjunct damage dealers. Tanks need to be good at defensive moves, active and passive, as well as maintaining aggro, instead of chasing Warrior DPS. Damage dealers really need to be the damage dealers with a clear advantage in party content over tanks and healers with respect to damage dealt - instead of chasing warrior Fell Cleaves... <j/k>.

As it is, as exemplified by this topic, healers are really being asked - by the balance of the game - to be a hybrid damage dealer with better healing than BLM & SMN.

[Azper]

If you have an dpsing healer in Sastasha there is a 99% chance that this person neither need nor want your "advice", because (most of the times) it's some non-sense BS anyway.

And most of the time we're out dpsing the actual dps anyway. >.>