Kicked from DR Leveling because I don't slot Protect for low level dungeons?

[Miste]

Remember that we are talking about dungeons under level 20. Talk of optimization and such is ludicrous.

Then why are you saying that Protect is important enough to go into slot 1? If optimizing at that level is ludicrous to you then realistically you should be advocating that we don't need to use cross class skills at all for sub level 20 content.

It's a pretty noticeable contradiction because as soon as you choose cross class skills to use you are optimizing....

No. Your sub-20 Cleric's Stance does not buy you more than ten seconds in a dungeon. Your run's speed is not going to be noticeably improved by DPSing in Cleric's Stance over DPSing raw, under level 20.

So um...can you prove what you are claiming here? Even if you could prove it only saves 10 seconds those 10 seconds is still more efficient than without it so it didn't really help your argument.

Someone on the first page did math for Protect already if you missed it and it shows that Cleric Stance is the better choice even if it might not make a large difference as you are trying to claim.

The tank dies at the same speed with or without Protect in sub level 20 content, but when it comes to Cleric Stance it is completely black and white. Using Cleric Stance is better than not using Cleric Stance for healer DPS. That is just a simple fact.

Equip Protect, cast at the start, and get the run started promptly.

Why does anyone have to equip Protect for sub level 20 content? That is optimizing and you said it was ludicrous. :/

I already said in my last post to you that no matter what a healer puts in their first cross class slot the sub level 20 dungeon can be easily completed. With or without Protect? Easy. With or without Cleric Stance? Easy. No cross class skill at all? Still easy. This is why I said it is really a non-issue and the only difference is efficiency. So I'm not sure which one of us is actually more stuck on optimizing or not :x

One is just more efficient than the other due to the Protect at that level not mattering enough to allow the tank to survive more hits than without it. You still have to stop to heal at the same time with or without it so you might as well increase your DPS with Cleric Stance when you are able to use your damage spells.

Example:

#1 With Protect but no Cleric Stance
-Tank pulls
-You DPS (without Cleric)
-You get 8 DPS spells off before having to heal the tank

#2 With Cleric Stance but no Protect
-Tank pulls
-You DPS (with Cleric)
-You get 8 DPS spells off before having to heal the tank (...hmm same amount of casts...but with Cleric on you did more overall damage)

How can you argue that #1 is more efficient?? Makes no sense.

It's moot anyway since there is a simple way to get both Protect and Cleric Stance at the same time, it is just a placebo though for players who don't understand what I explained above in the example that Protect doesn't actually make any increase in efficiency (sub level 20) while Cleric Stance does no matter how small it might be. So I am still inclined to do it the more efficient way to see how much time can be saved because why would I purposefully gimp my play style to something less efficient?

Edit in case people misunderstand me: Let me make this totally clear. I only care about my own optimization. Other players can do as they wish and I will hold no ill will towards them. I encourage more efficient and skilled play but that is about it. So, encourage? Yes. Try to force? No. If you want Protect in slot 1 and you don't DPS as a healer no problem. I personally don't mind at all. I just know I have the experience and I enjoy it so I do it.

[Kosmos992k]

It's moot anyway since there is a simple way to get both Protect and Cleric Stance at the same time, it is just a placebo though for players who don't understand what I explained above in the example that Protect doesn't actually make any increase in efficiency (sub level 20) while Cleric Stance does no matter how small it might be. So I am still inclined to do it the more efficient way to see how much time can be saved because why would I purposefully gimp my play style to something less efficient?

OK, obviously Cleric Stance increases healer DPS, but describing a passive Physical and magical defence buff that's approximately a 10% buff is hardly a placebo.

Essentially it's a 30 minute long free defensive buff how is that a placebo?

Personally on my PLD, I'll be slotting Protect and StoneSkin in the same slot and using a macro to switch them out so I have SS during action and can cast Protect if the healer can/does not do it.

Which was my original point: I overstated the benefits of having Cleric's Stance on in those dungeons in a previous post, I'll admit, because my main reason to post was this absurd notion that some people were putting out that if you don't cast Protect in the starter dungeons, then you're a lousy healer and/or are lazy and/or are putting your party at risk for selfish reasons, etc.

It's nonsense.

From purely numerical point of view, yes I suppose. but the low level dungeons (talking sub-50) are the tutorial content in the game. Yoshi has said as much several times now. So you're supposed to be learning your job/role there.

Protect is but one tool among those that healers can use to protect the group. How you choose to roll is your business, but others may want/expect a healer to cast a proactive defensive buff before moving. I see no issue with that at all - especially given the macro that Miste posted. I'm by no means saying healers shouldn't use cleric stance or contribute, but I have to admit I really dislike the tendency among some veteran players to completely dismiss certain skills and content because they have moved 'beyond' that stage.

[Saito_S]

OK, obviously Cleric Stance increases healer DPS, but describing a passive Physical and magical defence buff that's approximately a 10% buff is hardly a placebo.

Essentially it's a 30 minute long free defensive buff how is that a placebo?

Personally on my PLD, I'll be slotting Protect and StoneSkin in the same slot and using a macro to switch them out so I have SS during action and can cast Protect if the healer can/does not do it.

Because it does almost nothing.

Seriously, try it out, or just look at the math on it that was already done way back on page 1 (and others have brought this up later in the thread, as well): It literally mitigates like 3-4 damage per hit. It's not worth worrying over.

This is not to say that you SHOULDN'T use it, nor "You must use Cleric's in the starter dungeons!". But just that it really doesn't matter, and it's not worth worrying over, demanding someone else cast it, or any other such consternation.

[Miste]

Essentially it's a 30 minute long free defensive buff how is that a placebo?

It's only a placebo in content level 20 or lower. For the main reason that these intro dungeons are very very low tuned since they are the first dungeons new players get.

Since it is tuned so low Protect, as I explained already, doesn't actually let the tank survive any longer than without it. So if you look back at my example maybe that will help you understand what I meant.

As you get to higher and higher dungeons the % mitigation that Protect gives eventually starts making a difference since the damage enemies output becomes more 'average skilled player' tuned instead of 'beginner skilled player' tuned.

Like Satasha, Tam Tara, and Copperbell all could have harder hitting enemies than they have now and still be easily completed by most players. They just made it a lot easier than that to ease new players into the game.

Sorry If I am not explaining this very well trying my best :x

[TaranTatsuuchi]

OK, obviously Cleric Stance increases healer DPS, but describing a passive Physical and magical defence buff that's approximately a 10% buff is hardly a placebo.

Essentially it's a 30 minute long free defensive buff how is that a placebo?

Personally on my PLD, I'll be slotting Protect and StoneSkin in the same slot and using a macro to switch them out so I have SS during action and can cast Protect if the healer can/does not do it.



From purely numerical point of view, yes I suppose. but the low level dungeons (talking sub-50) are the tutorial content in the game. Yoshi has said as much several times now. So you're supposed to be learning your job/role there.

Protect is but one tool among those that healers can use to protect the group. How you choose to roll is your business, but others may want/expect a healer to cast a proactive defensive buff before moving. I see no issue with that at all - especially given the macro that Miste posted. I'm by no means saying healers shouldn't use cleric stance or contribute, but I have to admit I really dislike the tendency among some veteran players to completely dismiss certain skills and content because they have moved 'beyond' that stage.

I do believe it is not a buff to damage resistance...

It instead buffs the amount of defense the characters have.
So it is not a "You take x% less damage".

It's a "Increases your defense stats by x%"
Which is significantly less effective.