Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

[Brian_]

You're right, it's so much better to keep the actual dungeon & raid design. It didn't do any damage in the raiding community...But I guess that since you did okay, everybody else must be crybabies who complained for nothing.

What did damage to the raiding community is hardly related to your biased delusions about how tanks should be designed because one PLD got carried through A11N while only spamming RoH.

Yeah, and the first time someone climbs the eighth step in a stair, it's too difficult...unless one learned how to climb up to the seventh...

Except your seventh step is on a different stairway. Raid content is not the same as dungeon content -- even the hardest dungeon content. Dungeon content doesn't teach you how to tank swap. It doesn't teach you how to OT. It can't teach you some of the finer coordination needed to help your raid survive damage.

So, you're perfectly fine describing a PLD spamming RoH as an acceptable "entry level tank" ? I thought you had far higher standards than that.

I'm not fine with it. I've voiced my criticism of SE's PvE progression model in more relevant topics. However, I'm not like you and don't falsely correlate 1 person's poor performance in irrelevant content to my biased delusions about how a job should be changed to match my personal fantasy.

What they said in your quote...is basically not saying much. They gave more info during the live letter at Fanfest, but, saddly we don't have a summary source for now.

It's saying exactly what Yoshida said. They're scaling the jobs back to the basics and reducing the amount of things you need to micromanage. That's pretty definitive and clear. Their actions since have only proved such motivations. That idea is very relevant to tanks and the changes we might receive.

[Reynhart]

What did damage to the raiding community is hardly related to your biased delusions about how tanks should be designed because one PLD got carried through A11N while only spamming RoH.

Then please, tell me how greatly designed tanks are when it comes to actually tanking...tell me how great it is when every fight can be translated to a spreadsheet with every timer (and the CD rotation applied to it) clearly displayed...

Except your seventh step is on a different stairway. Raid content is not the same as Dungeon content -- even the hardest dungeon content.

It's still the same jobs into the same game...so no, it's the same stair. And if you really tink it's a different stair, then what you call the "actual learning curve" is even more nonsense.

However, I'm not like you and don't falsely correlate 1 person's poor performance in irrelevant content to my biased delusions about how a job should be changed to match my personal fantasy.

One example is enough to show that you can do it. That fact is a problem on itself.

[DaulBan]

Then please, tell me how greatly designed tanks are when it comes to actually tanking...tell me how great it is when every fight can be translated to a spreadsheet with every timer (and the CD rotation applied to it) clearly displayed...

You plan DPS buffs, healing actions, literally your own GCDs in fights because of the fact that there is a certain order of events in which things happen since 2.0. If you think that the fact that tanks can set a cooldown rotation for themselves is such an offensive, unacceptable thing, then I shiver to imagine how you feel of the formulaic approach to encounter design that SE has used since the dawn of ARR.

[Reynhart]

You plan DPS buffs

Has nothing to do with tanking

healing actions

Which means, as a PLD, you probably overheal since healers don't rely on you. But yes, with a proper timing, it can have an effect, even if only a little one. Too bad "expert" players will thell you to stop casting since it lowers your DPS...

literally your own GCDs

Which are almost all not related to tanking at all, apart from your basic enmity combo, and the occasional debuffs tied to some GCD...which most bosses are immune anyway.

If you think that the fact that tanks can set a cooldown rotation for themselves is such an offensive, unacceptable thing, then I shiver to imagine how you feel of the formulaic approach to encounter design that SE has used since the dawn of ARR.

More and more boring as they prove time and time over that they'll stick to it. And why shouldn't they, since so much people think it's a great thing to focus on DPS most of the time ?

[Jpec07]

Has nothing to do with tanking

You didn't read the essay I wrote a few pages ago, did you?

As killing the boss is a goal of the group challenging the encounter, anything a tank can do to contribute to that is worthwhile, and part of their job. Yes, a tank's first tasks are holding aggro and surviving, but those are comparatively easy in this game (I remember being encouraged when I started playing that the challenge in tanking gameplay would come in managing enmity; 40 levels later, I now know the truth). You survive the tankbuster, and you mitigate enough damage passively so a single unbuffed Regen can keep you up. What do you do?

You do damage.

If this were any other game, if surviving and holding hate required more effort, then maybe you could say that damage output is not in the tank's job description. But this is FFXIV. Encounters are easy to survive, and tanks are given tools where they can increase their damage without really sacrificing too much mitigation or enmity control.

Which means, as a PLD, you probably overheal since healers don't rely on you. But yes, with a proper timing, it can have an effect, even if only a little one. Too bad "expert" players will thell you to stop casting since it lowers your DPS...

You seem quite bitter on this. I've actually had healers thank me for using Clemency and Stoneskin when the fan starts getting poopy, as there can be situations in the game that require a lot from healers (yes, mechanics are easy, but some people, man...). Advice on the forums almost always revolves around the current Savage raid, and how to operate in a PUG.

But everything you read on here should be taken with a grain of salt. People give their opinions and often clash about them - that's exactly what's happening in this thread. Yes it's usually a good idea to try to maximize your damage output, but there may be situations where a well-placed Clemency or Stoneskin can save a healer or a DPS from dying; how much group damage did you contribute, then, by keeping that person alive?

The key is communication. If there's a part of the fight where you know healers are struggling, ask if they want you to throw out a Clemency or a couple Stoneskins (which, by the way, are a great alternative to helping mitigate group damage without contributing to overhealing). If they don't want it? Focus on surviving and on your own damage - at least you asked.

Which are almost all not related to tanking at all, apart from your basic enmity combo, and the occasional debuffs tied to some GCD...which most bosses are immune anyway.

Except they are. See point 1 for more info.

More and more boring as they prove time and time over that they'll stick to it. And why shouldn't they, since so much people think it's a great thing to focus on DPS most of the time ?

If you think tanking in FFXIV is so boring, why tank?

Damage output has always been a part of tank gameplay, as the fallback when you don't have to focus on enmity or survival. FFXIV downplays those, and so gives tanks more opportunity to "live dangerously" and maximize their output.

But as I keep saying, at the end of the day, if you and your group meet success at an encounter and you all have fun, then your damage output and effective mitigation are completely fine. Guides and forummites will tell you how to maximize your damage output, but in reality that's just because survival and enmity are pretty straightforward in this game, and because doing more DPS is never a bad thing.

EDIT: Just realized that if you'd told me six months ago that I'd be on this side of this discussion, I'd have called you a liar.

[Reynhart]

if surviving and holding hate required more effort, then maybe you could say that damage output is not in the tank's job description.

That's exactly what I think this game lacks. It has taken every core aspect of tanking and made it absurdingly easy. No wonder people say that DPSing is where tank players can really improve...
What I don't understand is how people don't see the problem of making what is a tank only the floor skill.

If you think tanking in FFXIV is so boring, why tank?

It's because I find it boring that I stopped raiding...then reduced my tanking time, and then my playing time...

EDIT: Just realized that if you'd told me six months ago that I'd be on this side of this discussion, I'd have called you a liar.

Times change...but I fear dark times for the game if it keep judging and balancing tanks only around their DPS output...

[Brian_]

Then please, tell me how greatly designed tanks are when it comes to actually tanking...tell me how great it is when every fight can be translated to a spreadsheet with every timer (and the CD rotation applied to it) clearly displayed...

That's how every job in this game plays -- even the ones more based on procs. You have a general framework for a fight based around optimized windows and CD usage and the rest is how you execute, micromanage / maximize GCDs, and react to limited RNG. If that's not the game you want to play, then you're playing the wrong game. Instead of being a petulant child and crying that things need to change because they aren't how you want them to be, maybe it's time you realized that this game is what it is.

It's still the same jobs into the same game...so no, it's the same stair. And if you really tink it's a different stair, then what you call the "actual learning curve" is even more nonsense.

Tanks don't play the same between dungeons and raids. That's why your stairway is broken. If you want to teach a tank how to excel as a raider, you need to teach them how to raid, not how to be a dungeon hero.

That's exactly what I think this game lacks. It has taken every core aspect of tanking and made it absurdingly easy. No wonder people say that DPSing is where tank players can really improve...
What I don't understand is how people don't see the problem of making what is a tank only the floor skill.

It's because I find it boring that I stopped raiding...then reduced my tanking time, and then my playing time...

Your perception of tanking lacks depth and understanding.

Yes, things like enmity and mitigation are easy at the entry level. They should be. This game needs more functional tanks just to keep the DF traffic flowing. But, if you understood exactly how tanks scaled upwards when pushing DPS, then you'd realize that the reality is the more you push DPS, the more challenging enmity and mitigation become. For some strange reason, you try to separate the different aspects of end-game tanking but any tank with actual experience knows that it's a fine balance between aspects.

When you are trying to maximize your SwO / Deliverance / Grit-less up-time, precise and appropriately gauged CD usage becomes significantly more important than when you're sitting there turtling up in ShO / Defiance / Grit. Formulating a sufficient CD rotation is significantly harder when you're planning around low tank-stance up-time. Once you reach the point where you realize that too much mitigation is a thing, you begin to understand the precise and exact quantities of mitigation you can have and how to manipulate it for max efficiency. That's certainly a more measured and intelligent grasp of the idea of mitigation than a meta where it's all mitigation all the time.

When you are trying to do a SwO / Deliverance / Grit-less cold pick-up on an add when your healers are forced to spam AoE heals and your DPS are going full throttle with no QS, it takes real skill (or a ninja, but that's another issue) and planning to snap aggro and stick the add. When you're sitting in tank stance spamming PS, BB and RoH, enmity is a complete non-issue. When you are near 100% SwO / Deliverance / Grit-less with elite DPS players challenging content that demands a lot of AoE healing and you're trying to maximize your DA SE / Delirium / RA usage or are forced to rotate Path / Eye, you suddenly need to watch your enmity.

Even the finer nuances of positioning matter more when you are trying to push your DPS. Things like barely avoiding AoEs to prevent the boss from shifting or losing / clipping a GCD, anticipating and knowing exactly how to position and rotate a boss as it leaps around the arena and constantly forces movement only really matter when you are trying to maximize DPS.

So everything you think defines a tank still very much matters and happens and is enabled by the DPS meta you apparently despise. It's just your bias that blinds you.

SE has designed the tank-meta so that the things you view as central to tanking are easy to pick-up but increasingly complex and difficult as you get better at the game and strive for mastery. That is how things should be in an MMO where accessibility matters and the bulk of your players are casual.