Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

[shao32]

i think some saying is more the actitude of many players around DPS, i mean no matter how you mitigate place and agro a boss even to a level to make the healer don heal you at all, if you DPS is low compared to going full DPS mode then you are bad, some times with a friend we go MT full dps mode, with zero mitigation and recive a lot of comendations for that, you can make healers life a hell is you dealt dps you go to be good, i not say this is correct or the form to be good, i mt and do dps bcs is the meta how required, but is pretty sad healers and tanks be judge by so many dps dealt in the encounter, and i hope they make a balance to the players feel rewarded by they tank/healing skills more that how many personal dps they do.

[Reynhart]

i mean no matter how you mitigate place and agro a boss even to a level to make the healer don heal you at all

If you have the opportunity to play a tank so well that you literally mitigate/avoid enough damage to the point where you don't need any healing, it would be a far better testimony of your tanking skill than any uber DPS number you could achieve.

@Shao, just because you are not in tank stance, doesnt mean that you are doing good DPS. Most tanks are just bad at pressing buttons. OTs in DF reflect that.

Yesterday, I ended with a PLD main tank that only spammed RoH throughout all of A11...it was really sad. But, now, let's imagine something. His WS rotation was extremely bad, but we still won the fight. Do you think he learned anything from that ?
Now, if the WS rotation was part of your tanking capabilities (i.e, generating enough enmity and mitigating damage), he would have died...and we would probably have lost.

Yes, it's a pain to lose a fight, but when it comes to the playerbase, it's better to lose one fight because the MT tank can't be carried that letting bad tanks clear even that kind of content.

[Brian_]

If you have the opportunity to play a tank so well that you literally mitigate/avoid enough damage to the point where you don't need any healing, it would be a far better testimony of your tanking skill than any uber DPS number you could achieve.

Yesterday, I ended with a PLD main tank that only spammed RoH throughout all of A11...it was really sad. But, now, let's imagine something. His WS rotation was extremely bad, but we still won the fight. Do you think he learned anything from that ?
Now, if the WS rotation was part of your tanking capabilities (i.e, generating enough enmity and mitigating damage), he would have died...and we would probably have lost.

Yes, it's a pain to lose a fight, but when it comes to the playerbase, it's better to lose one fight because the MT tank can't be carried that letting bad tanks clear even that kind of content.

And healers can be carried through fights without casting a single heal. DPS can be carried through fights without dealing any damage. I'd say healing and DPS are pretty important to the roles of healer and DPS, respectively. What you're referencing isn't a problem with the jobs, it's a problem with the content. When you say "even that kind of content," that's the standard you're referring to. There is a good chance a good group could 4 man most of Alex NM if not for some of the body count checks. Using that as a bar to measure the design of a job is foolish.

There are only a couple fights every tier that actually test whether or not you play your job well and whether or not those jobs are balanced. Those fights were too hard for most people so that's why SE is considering changes to dumb-down jobs. Again, those changes are not being made because of the tanks that could perform their jobs well. They're being made because of all the tanks who couldn't. So, when you discuss changes, that's the perspective that must be taken.

As Brannigan pointed out, you and the people on your side of the argument are being dumb. You can't raise the skill floor on the job when the skill floor is already too high for the overwhelming majority of people.

[Shurrikhan]

As Brannigan pointed out, you and the people on your side of the argument are being dumb. You can't raise the skill floor on the job when the skill floor is already too high for the overwhelming majority of people.

You can if you include support that better bridges that gap, for instance tutorials that are actually worth a damn, built-in output parsers, and so forth.

As long as SE leaves any meaningful learning tools beyond one's tooltips purely in the hands of the community that gap is just going to get larger, until floor and ceiling are both inevitably cut and all but that "majority" are encouraged to leave.

[Reynhart]

And healers can be carried through fights without casting a single heal.

Yet it's not a problem for you that a WAR wouldn't need any healing against a dungeon boss...and the tank is not the only one to take damage during a fight.

DPS can be carried through fights without dealing any damage.

Of course, because we all know how mitigating damage is a great way to deal with DPS checks.

Using that as a bar to measure the design of a job is foolish.

No, it's not. Alex NM is the best time to force people to improve on their job. You can't make everything faceroll, then kick everyone's butt when they enter savage. It's called a learning curve.

Again, those changes are not being made because of the tanks that could perform their jobs well. They're being made because of all the tanks who couldn't. So, when you discuss changes, that's the perspective that must be taken.

Actually, this is just speculation. They mentioned a change in job rotation, but as far as we know, they mostly talk about DPS skills, like Enochian and Blood of the Dragon.

As Brannigan pointed out, you and the people on your side of the argument are being dumb. You can't raise the skill floor on the job when the skill floor is already too high for the overwhelming majority of people.

Yes, you can, you raise the skill floor on content that asks no skill at all...why is a tank supposed to learn anything when he can pass A11 with just spamming RoH ?

That's just not true. If every job could do 2000 DPS by pressing 1 button, then a lot more people would clear hard content. If every tank had on demand hallowed ground for every tank buster, then a lot more people would clear hard content. If healers had a surplus of infinite range instant AoE healing / shielding, then a lot more people would clear hard content.

Then it wouldn't be hard content now, would it ?

[Brian_]

Yet it's not a problem for you that a WAR wouldn't need any healing against a dungeon boss...and the tank is not the only one to take damage during a fight.

Of course, because we all know how mitigating damage is a great way to deal with DPS checks.

No, it's not. Alex NM is the best time to force people to improve on their job. You can't make everything faceroll, then kick everyone's butt when they enter savage. It's called a learning curve.

You have some serious issues with linking mental ideas together. You said it was a bad thing that tanks could get carried through Alex NM and used it as a reason for why tank design should change. Everyone can get carried through Alex NM. Alex NM is not content that you should use to judge job design or job balance. That was my point.

So some tank spamming only RoH got carried through A11N. That says nothing about tank design at all and everything about A11N not demanding proper play. Use a piece of content that actually tests what the job should be capable of when speaking about how it fails to be what it should be. You are suggesting we make fundamental changes to tanks because A11N failed to test if a tank knew how to play. I am at a loss for words to describe how stupid that is.

Alex NM is not content where 1 person's mistakes should stop 7 other people from clearing. You, in your increasingly trademarked hypocrisy, try to expound the idea of a learning curve only to simply move the wall from Savage to NM because casual players need that. A wall is not a curve nor is 1 fight reason to alter an entire role.

Actually, this is just speculation. They mentioned a change in job rotation, but as far as we know, they mostly talk about DPS skills, like Enochian and Blood of the Dragon.

No, it's not speculation. They said that they made the Creator easier because people were incapable of executing optimized rotations while handling mechanics and they viewed that as a reason for the low clear rates. They said that if the rotation difficulty remained at 2.X levels when they were brain dead easy, then more people would've cleared the content. But, seeing as it's too late to make sweeping changes in 3.4, they'd work on them for 4.0.

[Reynhart]

Alex NM is not content that you should use to judge job design or job balance. That was my point.

And my point is that, yes, it is content where you should judge job design.

So some tank spamming only RoH got carried through A11N.

They shouldn't.

Alex NM is not content where 1 person's mistakes should stop 7 other people from clearing.

On that, you're right, but it should at least kill you. And spamming RoH is a blatant mistake...but since it has nothing to do with actual tanking, it doesn't matter at all.

You, in your increasingly trademarked hypocrisy, try to expound the idea of a learning curve only to simply move the wall from Savage to NM because casual players need that. A wall is not a curve nor is 1 fight reason to alter an entire role.

Then maybe we might discuss what a "curve" is. Right now, Savage is a wall, a big mercyless wall...and everything is boringly easy (Except some EX primals). What we should have is easy dungeons, slighty harder expert dungeons, even harder raid and really challenging savage raid. That's a "curve".

No, it's not speculation. They said that they made the Creator easier because people were incapable of executing optimized rotations while handling mechanics and they viewed that as a reason for the low clear rates.

Yes, for DPS. I don't recall them saying anythig about "tank rotation". To be precise, at Fan Fest, they didn't even mention changing the rotations by themselves but just making maintaining buffs "easier".

[Brian_]

And my point is that, yes, it is content where you should judge job design.

Then we should clearly redesign every job in every role because they can all get carried through A11N. Great reasoning. Actually, we should just scrap Stormblood and instead redesign everything around A11N.

What a joke.

Then maybe we might discuss what a "curve" is. Right now, Savage is a wall, a big mercyless wall...and everything is boringly easy (Except some EX primals). What we should have is easy dungeons, slighty harder expert dungeons, even harder raid and really challenging savage raid. That's a "curve".

So the first time someone sees an 8 man raid will be at the "even harder" difficulty. That's not a curve.

What they have now is more of a curve than what you're proposing and what they have now is already terrible. Alex NM is their entry level raid, EX trials and early Savage floors are their MC raids, and the last few floors are supposed to be their HC raids which gradually become MC with over gearing. That's right. Alex NM is not supposed to be hard because it is your introductory raid.

Yes, for DPS. I don't recall them saying anythig about "tank rotation".

What they said was not limited to DPS.

We are considering going back to the basics. Jobs from FFXIV at the moment require you to look at all your buffs and manage them and i feel we went too far. As a hardcore gamer stand point, "It's definately more fun when there's more you can do" and the team in charge of the battle system all have this idea in common and we think we accomplished that. But we made the Ceiling high and overdid it, so 4.0 will have less factors to manage and we want to straightly push out the characteristics of each job. The top tier players may think "this has become to easy boss..." , but we would like to closen the gap between hardcore players and casual players a little more. This is just an image so please take this as "Hmm, so it's becoming easier?"

And before you point to his mention of buffs, 3.0 PLD, DRK, and WAR all gave the role buff / debuff / DoT management burdens that tanks did not have in 2.X. For example, in 3.X, when trying to maximize DPS, a WAR needs high stack efficiency. If you hold stacks too often for whatever reason, your DPS plummets. And, they need to achieve that while having efficient fracture usage and optimized Berserk windows for 3 FCs. In 2.X, WAR didn't do any of that because they didn't have Deliverance. They off-loaded what they could from Defiance and dropped stance to DPS. As a result, the gap between a mediocre WAR and a top WAR ballooned in 3.X.

[Sarcatica]

for me twintania and nael was the best raid bosses on they respectives tiers, tank and healers dps dont matter (bcs whe are a lot more busy trying to survive) and i hope we go back to that in 4.0 where i feel challenged like a tank and not like a pseudo dps-tank.

Even in ARR, tanks' DPS were still a part of the DPS checks (2 tanks contributed at least 1-1.5 of a DPS). SCH back then was more of a mitigation healer to mitigate tank busters through shields and Virus, in min ilvl t9, tank busters hit so hard that your SCH needs to have shield up to mitigate BUT in a full ilvl (i110 for that or even i130 for lvl50), SCH is barely needed. There was a reason why quite a lot of the teams did solo tank which was to make the fight easier to do through skipping adds and killing nael before more divebombs happened, it is pretty much the same idea: kill bosses before they do anything big that are annoying to do as a group.

If you have the opportunity to play a tank so well that you literally mitigate/avoid enough damage to the point where you don't need any healing, it would be a far better testimony of your tanking skill than any uber DPS number you could achieve.

But that's far from the fact because healers still need to heal you up no matter what. You WILL always need healing no matter how "tanky" you are, FFXIV is just not that kind of game that allows you to be the impenetrable wall. You have to deal with it. What better testimony of a tank is mitigating fluff damage that constitute the same amount of healing needed anyway? You can test how long you can survive in any content without a single heal perhaps.

Note: maybe you should try Savage and see how good of a tank you can be that actually requires no heal at all. You might be able to cheese some of the easy facerolly contents and be your own healers but Savage just doesn't allow that.

No, it's not. Alex NM is the best time to force people to improve on their job. You can't make everything faceroll, then kick everyone's butt when they enter savage. It's called a learning curve.

Alex NM is not great to force people to improve. How many people here actually have cleared A9S? The fight is basically a dummy fight with a few mechanics here and there and people still fail at it. The curve is still steep, quite a lot of people still regularly fail at Faust Z when it's literally just a walking dummy fight. Dazzling, isn't it? And to think that A9S A10S were all down in i240s. Gear can't buy skills yo.

[shao32]

snip

yep is true, not only in coil, in every content tank dps is in mind, bcs tanks dont stay and do nothing, they skills do damage, so n matter how low is the dps from a job, it is here need to be add to the formula, in ARR tank dps was check on tank stance and fending full parry specs, in other words the lower dps you can get from a tank and still you have enough time to clear anything before the enrage, and you need all mitigation you can get, nael hit as hell even with the maximun gear of that tier and only depend of the party, with meaby mega pro first kill can go to the luxury to sacrifice def for more ofensive alo of teams take a lot of advantage having the tank in full defensive build.

3.0 do it all wrong with tanks from the begining, str meta yeah start in ARR in the last tier, but dont inpac on the player base bcs the tank dps check was the same from the begining and extra mitigation and hp was still pretty very usefull, in heavensward not, tanks with minimun hp, the changes of parry, and extremly high dps checks, we become all dps with sub dutys like heal or tank, for not mention of WAR scaling on that meta making worse all and making the players how like to go more to wall mode get discriminated for a big part of the player base.

dont get me wrong, i love the tanks here, i love my dark knight and the paladinand how tanking in this game work, im just asking for changes to let us have another way to improve ourselfs in a defensive way like in 2.0 where you can go to ofensive tanking but the risk was more great, and you can go more defensive and make more easy for to comrades they job but a lot more better, after all DPS metas only made DPS encounters, lazy and very predictable with they dps checks and all the same, they can add some others mechanics like pull you out the platform but is still the same, i want to see a encounter where make the MT run ut of cds and swap with the OT to recover and every extra mitigation helps for example.