Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

[Brian_]

And my point is that, yes, it is content where you should judge job design.

Then we should clearly redesign every job in every role because they can all get carried through A11N. Great reasoning. Actually, we should just scrap Stormblood and instead redesign everything around A11N.

What a joke.

Then maybe we might discuss what a "curve" is. Right now, Savage is a wall, a big mercyless wall...and everything is boringly easy (Except some EX primals). What we should have is easy dungeons, slighty harder expert dungeons, even harder raid and really challenging savage raid. That's a "curve".

So the first time someone sees an 8 man raid will be at the "even harder" difficulty. That's not a curve.

What they have now is more of a curve than what you're proposing and what they have now is already terrible. Alex NM is their entry level raid, EX trials and early Savage floors are their MC raids, and the last few floors are supposed to be their HC raids which gradually become MC with over gearing. That's right. Alex NM is not supposed to be hard because it is your introductory raid.

Yes, for DPS. I don't recall them saying anythig about "tank rotation".

What they said was not limited to DPS.

We are considering going back to the basics. Jobs from FFXIV at the moment require you to look at all your buffs and manage them and i feel we went too far. As a hardcore gamer stand point, "It's definately more fun when there's more you can do" and the team in charge of the battle system all have this idea in common and we think we accomplished that. But we made the Ceiling high and overdid it, so 4.0 will have less factors to manage and we want to straightly push out the characteristics of each job. The top tier players may think "this has become to easy boss..." , but we would like to closen the gap between hardcore players and casual players a little more. This is just an image so please take this as "Hmm, so it's becoming easier?"

And before you point to his mention of buffs, 3.0 PLD, DRK, and WAR all gave the role buff / debuff / DoT management burdens that tanks did not have in 2.X. For example, in 3.X, when trying to maximize DPS, a WAR needs high stack efficiency. If you hold stacks too often for whatever reason, your DPS plummets. And, they need to achieve that while having efficient fracture usage and optimized Berserk windows for 3 FCs. In 2.X, WAR didn't do any of that because they didn't have Deliverance. They off-loaded what they could from Defiance and dropped stance to DPS. As a result, the gap between a mediocre WAR and a top WAR ballooned in 3.X.

[Reynhart]

Then we should clearly redesign every job in every role because they can all get carried through A11N. Great reasoning. Actually, we should just scrap Stormblood and instead redesign everything around A11N.

You're right, it's so much better to keep the actual dungeon & raid design. It didn't do any damage in the raiding community...But I guess that since you did okay, everybody else must be crybabies who complained for nothing.

So the first time someone sees an 8 man raid will be at the "even harder" difficulty. That's not a curve.

Yeah, and the first time someone climbs the eighth step in a stair, it's too difficult...unless one learned how to climb up to the seventh...

What they have now is more of a curve than what you're proposing and what they have now is already terrible. Alex NM is their entry level raid

So, you're perfectly fine describing a PLD spamming RoH as an acceptable "entry level tank" ? I thought you had far higher standards than that.

What they said was not limited to DPS.

What they said in your quote...is basically not saying much. They gave more info during the live letter at Fanfest, but, saddly we don't have a summary source for now.

[Brian_]

You're right, it's so much better to keep the actual dungeon & raid design. It didn't do any damage in the raiding community...But I guess that since you did okay, everybody else must be crybabies who complained for nothing.

What did damage to the raiding community is hardly related to your biased delusions about how tanks should be designed because one PLD got carried through A11N while only spamming RoH.

Yeah, and the first time someone climbs the eighth step in a stair, it's too difficult...unless one learned how to climb up to the seventh...

Except your seventh step is on a different stairway. Raid content is not the same as dungeon content -- even the hardest dungeon content. Dungeon content doesn't teach you how to tank swap. It doesn't teach you how to OT. It can't teach you some of the finer coordination needed to help your raid survive damage.

So, you're perfectly fine describing a PLD spamming RoH as an acceptable "entry level tank" ? I thought you had far higher standards than that.

I'm not fine with it. I've voiced my criticism of SE's PvE progression model in more relevant topics. However, I'm not like you and don't falsely correlate 1 person's poor performance in irrelevant content to my biased delusions about how a job should be changed to match my personal fantasy.

What they said in your quote...is basically not saying much. They gave more info during the live letter at Fanfest, but, saddly we don't have a summary source for now.

It's saying exactly what Yoshida said. They're scaling the jobs back to the basics and reducing the amount of things you need to micromanage. That's pretty definitive and clear. Their actions since have only proved such motivations. That idea is very relevant to tanks and the changes we might receive.

[Reynhart]

What did damage to the raiding community is hardly related to your biased delusions about how tanks should be designed because one PLD got carried through A11N while only spamming RoH.

Then please, tell me how greatly designed tanks are when it comes to actually tanking...tell me how great it is when every fight can be translated to a spreadsheet with every timer (and the CD rotation applied to it) clearly displayed...

Except your seventh step is on a different stairway. Raid content is not the same as Dungeon content -- even the hardest dungeon content.

It's still the same jobs into the same game...so no, it's the same stair. And if you really tink it's a different stair, then what you call the "actual learning curve" is even more nonsense.

However, I'm not like you and don't falsely correlate 1 person's poor performance in irrelevant content to my biased delusions about how a job should be changed to match my personal fantasy.

One example is enough to show that you can do it. That fact is a problem on itself.

[DaulBan]

Then please, tell me how greatly designed tanks are when it comes to actually tanking...tell me how great it is when every fight can be translated to a spreadsheet with every timer (and the CD rotation applied to it) clearly displayed...

You plan DPS buffs, healing actions, literally your own GCDs in fights because of the fact that there is a certain order of events in which things happen since 2.0. If you think that the fact that tanks can set a cooldown rotation for themselves is such an offensive, unacceptable thing, then I shiver to imagine how you feel of the formulaic approach to encounter design that SE has used since the dawn of ARR.

[Reynhart]

You plan DPS buffs

Has nothing to do with tanking

healing actions

Which means, as a PLD, you probably overheal since healers don't rely on you. But yes, with a proper timing, it can have an effect, even if only a little one. Too bad "expert" players will thell you to stop casting since it lowers your DPS...

literally your own GCDs

Which are almost all not related to tanking at all, apart from your basic enmity combo, and the occasional debuffs tied to some GCD...which most bosses are immune anyway.

If you think that the fact that tanks can set a cooldown rotation for themselves is such an offensive, unacceptable thing, then I shiver to imagine how you feel of the formulaic approach to encounter design that SE has used since the dawn of ARR.

More and more boring as they prove time and time over that they'll stick to it. And why shouldn't they, since so much people think it's a great thing to focus on DPS most of the time ?

[Jpec07]

Has nothing to do with tanking

You didn't read the essay I wrote a few pages ago, did you?

As killing the boss is a goal of the group challenging the encounter, anything a tank can do to contribute to that is worthwhile, and part of their job. Yes, a tank's first tasks are holding aggro and surviving, but those are comparatively easy in this game (I remember being encouraged when I started playing that the challenge in tanking gameplay would come in managing enmity; 40 levels later, I now know the truth). You survive the tankbuster, and you mitigate enough damage passively so a single unbuffed Regen can keep you up. What do you do?

You do damage.

If this were any other game, if surviving and holding hate required more effort, then maybe you could say that damage output is not in the tank's job description. But this is FFXIV. Encounters are easy to survive, and tanks are given tools where they can increase their damage without really sacrificing too much mitigation or enmity control.

Which means, as a PLD, you probably overheal since healers don't rely on you. But yes, with a proper timing, it can have an effect, even if only a little one. Too bad "expert" players will thell you to stop casting since it lowers your DPS...

You seem quite bitter on this. I've actually had healers thank me for using Clemency and Stoneskin when the fan starts getting poopy, as there can be situations in the game that require a lot from healers (yes, mechanics are easy, but some people, man...). Advice on the forums almost always revolves around the current Savage raid, and how to operate in a PUG.

But everything you read on here should be taken with a grain of salt. People give their opinions and often clash about them - that's exactly what's happening in this thread. Yes it's usually a good idea to try to maximize your damage output, but there may be situations where a well-placed Clemency or Stoneskin can save a healer or a DPS from dying; how much group damage did you contribute, then, by keeping that person alive?

The key is communication. If there's a part of the fight where you know healers are struggling, ask if they want you to throw out a Clemency or a couple Stoneskins (which, by the way, are a great alternative to helping mitigate group damage without contributing to overhealing). If they don't want it? Focus on surviving and on your own damage - at least you asked.

Which are almost all not related to tanking at all, apart from your basic enmity combo, and the occasional debuffs tied to some GCD...which most bosses are immune anyway.

Except they are. See point 1 for more info.

More and more boring as they prove time and time over that they'll stick to it. And why shouldn't they, since so much people think it's a great thing to focus on DPS most of the time ?

If you think tanking in FFXIV is so boring, why tank?

Damage output has always been a part of tank gameplay, as the fallback when you don't have to focus on enmity or survival. FFXIV downplays those, and so gives tanks more opportunity to "live dangerously" and maximize their output.

But as I keep saying, at the end of the day, if you and your group meet success at an encounter and you all have fun, then your damage output and effective mitigation are completely fine. Guides and forummites will tell you how to maximize your damage output, but in reality that's just because survival and enmity are pretty straightforward in this game, and because doing more DPS is never a bad thing.

EDIT: Just realized that if you'd told me six months ago that I'd be on this side of this discussion, I'd have called you a liar.