Lets nerf WAR :D

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

Ok after reading 18 pages of this I guess i'll put in my 2 cents.

I switched to war in 3.0 because both of the guys that were my potential co tanks were PLD and DRK respectively, so I made the choice to give WAR a more serious go this time around. Honestly, I could scarcely believe how well its kit was put together. Everything has such a good and intentioned synergy with other skills that it was a real treat to level and play. Now after going back and leveling PLD for fun I can say that WAR just feels smoother, it's mitigation mixes well with both defensive and offensive mindsets. PLD lacks this synergy I feel right now. If it took a few WAR nerfs to fix the meta then that's fine, as long as it doesn't affect the general flow of the class.

Concerning Nerfs:
- Anything nerfing stack gain should be off the table, this is one of the most fun dynamics of WAR tanking in general. Do I blow RI to gain that stack for the fell cleave before the jump or do I save it for mitigation later? These are the kind of conscious decisions that make WAR appealing to some of us.
- I'd be alright with a Maim nerf. Drop the percentage to around 10% instead of 15%. That by itself would drop quite a bit of damage and not hurt our play-style at all.
- I'd also be fine with a slight nerf to both deliverance abilities. If the big number abilities are the things making people sad then that's fine too.

Nerfs that would be better served as buffs:
- I'm still of the firm stance that all tanks should have some kind of access to a slashing debuff. Tack it onto RA and away we go.
- Let's say they do these nerfs on WAR. Clemency is still unusable. Your ok with that? Clemency needs fixes yesterday.
- Shield swipe would still be broken.
- Reprisal is still a RNG based ability ( even if dark dance is a easy way to trigger it)

Even if they did nerf WAR, you'd still need to buff the other classes. There's more on the table here than just damage potential ( even if the meta clearly is geared for it right now). If we are gonna talk about the homogenization of classes then we need to bring up more than just nerfs. There's serious issues with how PLD plays right now. It's viable, but a few minor buffs to some of its key and signature abilities could take it to a more than playable level.

The first thing I want to say is thank you for being understanding. Leveling a Paladin and doing more than just dungeon content is what it will take for other tank jobs to understand what we're working with (in the case of this expansion and the end-game content...what we're not working with.) I believe it also takes more than just doing Savage to understand how the job can't be played even if Paladins try. You bring up the fact that Warrior without a doubt has the best content clearing kit in the game and that's the truth; quite frankly the only way I see this dilemma truly being solved is to rework some existing jobs with each successive expansion. People argue that homogenization will happen.....it's going to happen regardless of what Square does with each successive introduction of new jobs.....The reason for this is plain if you look at a few things:

1. Jobs can only perform a certain amount of actions based on current stats that we can directly manipulate through skills. I feel as though we've rather abruptly reached that limit with this expansion. We're already at the point where some jobs overlap enhancing skillspeed, spellspeed, mitigation shields, damage enhancements, etc. That's part of the reason why Paladin is where it's at currently......at this point, what can we do that other jobs don't do as well? They'll either have to create new stats, blanket buff abilities, or maybe even create a new Job Role tier system where jobs themselves would be like their base classes that advanced to more powerful and varied versions of themselves. Sword Saint for Paladins, Berserker for Warriors, Samurai for Dark Knights as examples. Lots of games try all of that and for the most part do okay....lots of games try all of that and fail miserably. I liken this argument to trying to say that there's no word that hasn't been said yet. The entirety of a person's lexicon, learned in the prime of their life, has been said before their very inception. It's inevitable. Our very existence is tied to repetition and similarity in a multitude of ways. If it was even conceivable that we could endlessly create then we wouldn't even be humans, we'd be gods.

2. Jobs can only do things that fit within their role in terms of abilities and utility. If they made Paladin into a tank/healer hybrid we'd be crossing into the realm of overpowered. I feel as though I don't really need to say anything more with this statement.

3. Evolution applies to more than just organic beings. As it stands with each successive advancement we're going to have to perform more and more like each other or certain jobs will die....I liken this to Cro-Magnon VS. Neanderthal. Currently Warrior is very obviously the Cro-Magnon.

In all honestly, I don't want to see the Warrior's potential to be reduced. Some of their skills may or may not be okay on other jobs but when it concerns what to do and not do, it isn't up to me though and I'm thankful for that. No matter what Square-Enix does, they'll be the perceived enemy when it's really our existence and our understanding of it that's really at fault.


EDIT: What is it with me and existentialism.....

[Snowy_Mist]

Leveling a Paladin and doing more than just dungeon content is what it will take for other tank jobs to understand what we're working with...I believe it also takes more than just doing Savage to understand how the job can't be played even if Paladins try..

Whats with the contradiction there?
Can't be played? why was there a Lucrezia's team for the first 2 floors?
If paladins managed to clear the 1-3 floors in the same week as the world 1st's, and the 4th was the only floor that was delayed then its the raid design of the last floor and not necessarily the entire class being total shit and unplayable, meaning most likely as yoshida said its probably just gonna end up being more phy dmg in the next set of floors change in plds utility and war wont get nerfs

Honestly I don't think paladin is as bad as people make it out to be, i actually found it was the easiest to stance dance and level via dungeons.
/rant

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

Whats with the contradiction there?
Can't be played? why was there a Lucrezia's team for the first 2 floors?
If paladins managed to clear the 1-3 floors in the same week as the world 1st's, and the 4th was the only floor that was delayed then its the raid design of the last floor and not necessarily the entire class being total shit and unplayable, meaning most likely as yoshida said its probably just gonna end up being more phy dmg in the next set of floors change in plds utility and war wont get nerfs
Honestly I don't think paladin is as bad as people make it out to be, i actually found it was the easiest to stance dance and level via dungeons.
/rant

Now that you point out how awkward my statement sounds I feel terrible. I need to "git gud" at saying what I need to say in more understandable terms. My intention with making the statement was to express that if you only do dungeons with a Paladin, you'll only see part of some issues; it's also the same with just doing fates until 60 and reading guides for how you can play Paladin "optimally" to do Savage. Obviously you'll need to do the 60 dungeons to obtain Esoterics so you could get a feel for Paladin as you build up to Savage. Wow, I don't think this attempt is going too well either in regards to clarification.....basically what I'm saying is it takes a couple of months doing all sorts of content (to include dungeons, Primal Ex's, and Savage,) to gauge where it's at in a general sense when compared to other tanks. The pacing of all of these encounters will give you the best idea of where Paladins stand....and most of what I'm reading isn't a lie. In dungeons you will clear 1-2 minutes faster at worst and 5-8 minutes faster at best with a Dark Knight and Warrior depending on party composition. In "end-game" content there will be noticeable advantages through easier and faster clears; you'll not only be able to get farther in phases because you can push easier from sheer dps but it will be more reliable because of what Dark Knight and Warrior currently bring to the entirety of all content.

In regards to the "can't be played" statement I meant I can't help burn down enemies with AoE. As another example, and this may actually wind up hurting my arguments in the future, I find that using bloodbath is useless on Paladin even with an entire STR right side loadout. I don't do enough damage to justify it taking up a slot so I used Mercy Stroke instead which is arguably just as useless unless you consider slightly higher dps on the ending of a pull. My burst damage is almost non-existent in comparison in either stance. Don't get me wrong, I'm okay with what I've said (barring my feelings that I can't do as good.) Right now it just takes longer to do content with a Paladin, which can't even make up for it's own shortcomings, to do not just end-game stuff but regular stuff too. I do believe we're okay on floors 1-3, assuming we're at low item level, if the group works great together. It's just that the hardest floor forces other players to help me along and that grabs me by the heart. I just hope none of this comes off as jealousy or anger, I'm truly okay with how the other tanks are doing, I just don't appreciate the skills I've been given in relation to current and future content.