Lets nerf WAR :D

[FallenWings]

Except not really. There is much more to Warrior's playstyle and flavor that makes them unique without having to have the highest DPS by such a significant margin (10-15%? Okay, fine. 50%? Hell no). Combined with the fact that they are one of the only classes to bring the debuff that mostly only tanks rely on, and you've got a recipe for Warriors being necessary for group comp.

If it helps make you feel better, we can give Warriors the piercing debuff, so Dragoons are also less essential (and so MCH and BRD would rejoice and sing us wonderful songs).

For future reference, Ninjas also deal the Slashing damage type and bring Slash Resist Down through Dancing Edge. Storm's Eye is not unique. The only unique skills I can remember off the top of my head are Rage of Halone, Disembowel, half of Dragon Kick(Blunt Resist Down), Rain of Death, Trick Attack, Storm's Path and Reprisal(these latter two do not overwrite each other).

I think a better point for balancing Tank Damage rather than evening their personal DPS is to adjust their respective utilities or lack thereof that would further enable more DPS. We need only look at how the DPS balance is set up to take ideas, for example; Bards and MCH's have arguably the lowest Single Target yet enable Raid Wide DPS gain through their various support functions. Ninja's have the lowest DPS against the Melees yet are balanced with the fact that they have Trick Attack, Dancing Edge, Goad, Shadeshift and Smokescreen.

I'd like the idea of PLD having excess mitigation which allows more DPS from healers that would make up for the difference that a WAR or DRK provides, but the way healer DPS works right now, that isn't plausible.

For those arguing about WAR's supposively 'violation' of the DPS upperband or whatever you want to call it.

Good WARs can only out damage bad-mediocre DPS players.

It's everyone's responsibility to contribute to the main goal of any fight and that is Kill X Boss. So the idea of "DPS is only for the DPS to worry about" is simply a narrow minded and rather selfish thought process. It's a team game, we all work together to win.




Edit+: Some ideas for tweaking came to mind.

Sheltron should be changed to a 3 second Duration mitigate 20% damage rather than a Shield Block. Does not activate for Auto Attacks. This would give PLD's a nice overall mitigation boost in both physical and magical.

The reasoning for removal of Shield Block is that Blocks and Parry can be bypassed through a crit and do not have that benefit of having the extra block/parry layer.
Take the Warrior skill FreeWrath/Abando- er.. Raw Intuition for example, people like to claim it as a purely "Phys only Rampart" that only works on the front but it also has another draw back being that it cannot further benefit from random parries/blocks like how Rampart and Shadow Skin would.

Reprisal should be changed to a 5/10 second 10% Damage with the same cooldown but does not need a parry to be activated. You could attach a manacost to it or even a Dark Arts effect like: Also reduce the target's Intelligence Stat by 10%. Stacks with Delirium and Dragon Kick.

[Jpec07]

A play style that you know so much about at level 28 Marauder, right? Your DPS estimates are off quite a bit as well, if you're getting beat in DPS by a WAR and he's doing 50% more than you then you're doing something wrong.

There's this thing called an "alt;" maybe you've heard of it...

[Tyrial]

There's this thing called an "alt;" maybe you've heard of it...

And having an "alt" makes what you've said any more credible? You don't nerf a job just to bring it in line with the rest of the jobs that perform that same role. You don't strip utility from one to make another feel better, you give the ones that are lacking something that will bring them up to par without making them a copy/paste of each other with different names and animations.

PLD doesn't need a DPS boost, it needs more utility and an enmity boost so it's able to use what it's already been given in Heavensward. Clemency needs to be altered so it's actually useful.

DRK is pretty solid even though it could use some tweaks (such as mitigation being reliant on RNG).

WAR doesn't need to be touched, it's in a good spot with what it's been given and is able to perform either role (MT or OT) to a high standard. The only reason it's a "requirement" is because people are still trying to push content at a lower gear level than what SE had intended for the instance to be run at. Everything a WAR brings to the table can be gained from other raid compositions. Tank DPS will be slightly lower, but in the hands of a skilled player it will still be competitive.

People are complaining that World Firsts didn't take a PLD but they're not looking at the fact that this was being done due to how undergeared they were at the time and honestly, most of the people who are complaining the hardest probably don't even touch Savage at all.

[Jpec07]

And having an "alt" makes what you've said any more credible?

No, but it does dismantle your assault on my credibility. But let's stop this invective side-bar before we get too far off topic.

You don't nerf a job just to bring it in line with the rest of the jobs that perform that same role.

Isn't that what the thread is about? Hypothetical nerfs to Warriors? It isn't happening (that we know of), so there's no need to get upset, it's just what I'd do with it.

You don't strip utility from one to make another feel better, you give the ones that are lacking something that will bring them up to par without making them a copy/paste of each other with different names and animations.

Who said anything about copy-paste? And who said anything about taking utility away? I said to give it to them, so they also have it.

<off-topic snip>

WAR doesn't need to be touched, it's in a good spot with what it's been given and is able to perform either role (MT or OT) to a high standard. The only reason it's a "requirement" is because people are still trying to push content at a lower gear level than what SE had intended for the instance to be run at. Everything a WAR brings to the table can be gained from other raid compositions. Tank DPS will be slightly lower, but in the hands of a skilled player it will still be competitive.

People are complaining that World Firsts didn't take a PLD but they're not looking at the fact that this was being done due to how undergeared they were at the time and honestly, most of the people who are complaining the hardest probably don't even touch Savage at all.

This is a hypothetical, devil's advocate thread. Just because we're entertaining the idea of WAR nerfs doesn't mean anyone posting here actually thinks they should be nerfed (though some of us probably do).

[Duelle]

@Giantbane: I'll agree to disagree. It smells too much of "how much I can get away with before I get caught/die" for my liking.

In a certain sense, this is already happening in 3.0 to a lesser degree. When I decide to DF EX roulette as DPS or heals, I'm always a little disappointed when I get PLD or I get tanks wearing all VIT (i180+ in all VIT). I know the run is going to go slower as a result. I keep it all to myself, but I'm still thinking it.

When it fully comes to fruition, I guess some of us will have to learn to live with being the villain. >.>

[Syzygian]

Reprisal should be changed to a 5/10 second 10% Damage with the same cooldown but does not need a parry to be activated. You could attach a manacost to it or even a Dark Arts effect like: Also reduce the target's Intelligence Stat by 10%. Stacks with Delirium and Dragon Kick.

Google the definition of the word "reprisal" and you'll learn why this idea and all others like it that want to make Reprisal a non-parry proc are moronic. Tired of seeing them.


As a lvl 60 DRK progressing in A3S, I can tell you that you use Reprisal in a fashion much more akin to Inner Beast than to Storm's Path.

-WAR builds Wrath and then hits IB in advance of a tank buster.
-DRK pops Dark Dance to proc and then hits Reprisal in advance of a tank buster or raid-wide nuke. It lasts longer and is raid wide at the expense of potency.

Reprisal is not Path, nor does it need to be. It is there as it is to make up for the fact that Delirium is magic only, and they have no other raid mitigation utility like PLD (in spite of the current raid tier rendering most of those utilities useless).

WAR has 100% uptime on -10% phys and mag
DRK has 100% uptime on -10% mag, and an additional 66% theoretical uptime on -10% phys and mag so -10 to 20% magical and -0 to 10% physical. Its more or less an equal amount of total mitigation on fights with a mix of physical and magical damage. And lets be honest, an overwhelming majority of raid-wide damage is not physical, so it doesn't even matter that much.

And again as a DRK in endgame content right now, I can tell you that regardless of your investment in your parry stat it is VERY easy to get a Reprisal when you want one. It simply requires planning. And if you're popping Dark Dance 20s in advance of a TB or raidwide nuke on any fight where a boss autoattacks with any degree of frequency, the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor to parry inside DDs duration, and get the Reprisal proc that you want. So an rng argument doesn't hold water.

Also its hilarious that this thread is turning into another buff PLD thread.
DRK does not need a buff. It is fine where it is. Every change I've seen people suggest for it is either nonsensical, based on a fundamental lack of understanding on how the job plays when maximized, or a subjective nitpick rather than an actual mechanical issue.

Hypothetical nerfs to Warriors? It isn't happening (that we know of), so there's no need to get upset

This is a hypothetical, devil's advocate thread. Just because we're entertaining the idea of WAR nerfs doesn't mean anyone posting here actually thinks they should be nerfed (though some of us probably do).

This guy gets it.

[FallenWings]

Gameplay Mechanics > Trivial definition loyalty.

Alternatively, change the skill name if it irritates people so much.

The very concept of Reprisal is a violation of a Tanking fundamental in this game:

Never rely on RNG to save your buttocks.

And if you read my suggestion a bit more carefully, you'd notice that the cooldown of Reprisal is retained (30 seconds) and the duration lowered so that Reprisal would be used in a similiar fashion to Inner Beast for preparation of a big hit if you weren't spamming it as a DPS oGCD.

The fact that you have to hold a defensive CD just to potentially activate another CD for a big hit is poor effective design and a convoluted gameplay mechanic.

DRK is not fine. It WILL have its glaring issues surface again once content that doesn't explicitly cater to the class arrive.

A reason why people would rather suggest buffs is simply because nerfing WAR in its current state achieves nothing but make more problems.

It's like saying you should turn a fully functional hammer into a screw driver so that the other screwdrivers don't feel bad about being excluded from a hammer job.

[Ultimatecalibur]

A reason why people would rather suggest buffs is simply because nerfing WAR in its current state achieves nothing but make more problems.

No. People prefer buffs over nerfs because of the associated connotations. The term "buff" has positive connotations while the term "nerf" has negative connotations. In other words people feel buffs are good and nerfs are bad even if they would not fix the problem.

Much of the disagreement is about what is causing the known problem (a performance gap between the three tanks). Some see it as the Warrior over-performing as a tank while others see it as the Paladin (and to a lesser extent the Dark Knight) under-performing.

If the cause is Warrior over-performance then the best solution would be to reduce the Warrior's ability to perform, but that would require nerfs (which are "bad") so people prefer to avoid thinking about this possibly.

If the cause is Paladin/Dark Knight under-performance then the best solution would be to improve Paladin/Dark Knight ability to perform, and as this would require buffs (which are "good") so people want to focus on this possibility.

It's like saying you should turn a fully functional hammer into a screw driver so that the other screwdrivers don't feel bad about being excluded from a hammer job.

Bad analogy. A better one for the current situation is that the Warrior is a Combination Powered Circular Saw, Dark Knight is a Crosscut Push saw and Paladin is a Ripping Pull Saw.

The Crosscut and Ripping saws are better when doing the cuts that they specialize in, but the Crosscut has a bit more "oomph" because of it being a push saw. The Circular Saw on the other hand is just outright better at cutting.

[karateorangutang]

Ok after reading 18 pages of this I guess i'll put in my 2 cents.

I switched to war in 3.0 because both of the guys that were my potential co tanks were PLD and DRK respectively, so I made the choice to give WAR a more serious go this time around. Honestly, I could scarcely believe how well its kit was put together. Everything has such a good and intentioned synergy with other skills that it was a real treat to level and play. Now after going back and leveling PLD for fun I can say that WAR just feels smoother, it's mitigation mixes well with both defensive and offensive mindsets. PLD lacks this synergy I feel right now. If it took a few WAR nerfs to fix the meta then that's fine, as long as it doesn't affect the general flow of the class.

Concerning Nerfs:
- Anything nerfing stack gain should be off the table, this is one of the most fun dynamics of WAR tanking in general. Do I blow RI to gain that stack for the fell cleave before the jump or do I save it for mitigation later? These are the kind of conscious decisions that make WAR appealing to some of us.
- I'd be alright with a Maim nerf. Drop the percentage to around 10% instead of 15%. That by itself would drop quite a bit of damage and not hurt our play-style at all.
- I'd also be fine with a slight nerf to both deliverance abilities. If the big number abilities are the things making people sad then that's fine too.

Nerfs that would be better served as buffs:
- I'm still of the firm stance that all tanks should have some kind of access to a slashing debuff. Tack it onto RA and away we go.
- Let's say they do these nerfs on WAR. Clemency is still unusable. Your ok with that? Clemency needs fixes yesterday.
- Shield swipe would still be broken.
- Reprisal is still a RNG based ability ( even if dark dance is a easy way to trigger it)

Even if they did nerf WAR, you'd still need to buff the other classes. There's more on the table here than just damage potential ( even if the meta clearly is geared for it right now). If we are gonna talk about the homogenization of classes then we need to bring up more than just nerfs. There's serious issues with how PLD plays right now. It's viable, but a few minor buffs to some of its key and signature abilities could take it to a more than playable level.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

Ok after reading 18 pages of this I guess i'll put in my 2 cents.

I switched to war in 3.0 because both of the guys that were my potential co tanks were PLD and DRK respectively, so I made the choice to give WAR a more serious go this time around. Honestly, I could scarcely believe how well its kit was put together. Everything has such a good and intentioned synergy with other skills that it was a real treat to level and play. Now after going back and leveling PLD for fun I can say that WAR just feels smoother, it's mitigation mixes well with both defensive and offensive mindsets. PLD lacks this synergy I feel right now. If it took a few WAR nerfs to fix the meta then that's fine, as long as it doesn't affect the general flow of the class.

Concerning Nerfs:
- Anything nerfing stack gain should be off the table, this is one of the most fun dynamics of WAR tanking in general. Do I blow RI to gain that stack for the fell cleave before the jump or do I save it for mitigation later? These are the kind of conscious decisions that make WAR appealing to some of us.
- I'd be alright with a Maim nerf. Drop the percentage to around 10% instead of 15%. That by itself would drop quite a bit of damage and not hurt our play-style at all.
- I'd also be fine with a slight nerf to both deliverance abilities. If the big number abilities are the things making people sad then that's fine too.

Nerfs that would be better served as buffs:
- I'm still of the firm stance that all tanks should have some kind of access to a slashing debuff. Tack it onto RA and away we go.
- Let's say they do these nerfs on WAR. Clemency is still unusable. Your ok with that? Clemency needs fixes yesterday.
- Shield swipe would still be broken.
- Reprisal is still a RNG based ability ( even if dark dance is a easy way to trigger it)

Even if they did nerf WAR, you'd still need to buff the other classes. There's more on the table here than just damage potential ( even if the meta clearly is geared for it right now). If we are gonna talk about the homogenization of classes then we need to bring up more than just nerfs. There's serious issues with how PLD plays right now. It's viable, but a few minor buffs to some of its key and signature abilities could take it to a more than playable level.

The first thing I want to say is thank you for being understanding. Leveling a Paladin and doing more than just dungeon content is what it will take for other tank jobs to understand what we're working with (in the case of this expansion and the end-game content...what we're not working with.) I believe it also takes more than just doing Savage to understand how the job can't be played even if Paladins try. You bring up the fact that Warrior without a doubt has the best content clearing kit in the game and that's the truth; quite frankly the only way I see this dilemma truly being solved is to rework some existing jobs with each successive expansion. People argue that homogenization will happen.....it's going to happen regardless of what Square does with each successive introduction of new jobs.....The reason for this is plain if you look at a few things:

1. Jobs can only perform a certain amount of actions based on current stats that we can directly manipulate through skills. I feel as though we've rather abruptly reached that limit with this expansion. We're already at the point where some jobs overlap enhancing skillspeed, spellspeed, mitigation shields, damage enhancements, etc. That's part of the reason why Paladin is where it's at currently......at this point, what can we do that other jobs don't do as well? They'll either have to create new stats, blanket buff abilities, or maybe even create a new Job Role tier system where jobs themselves would be like their base classes that advanced to more powerful and varied versions of themselves. Sword Saint for Paladins, Berserker for Warriors, Samurai for Dark Knights as examples. Lots of games try all of that and for the most part do okay....lots of games try all of that and fail miserably. I liken this argument to trying to say that there's no word that hasn't been said yet. The entirety of a person's lexicon, learned in the prime of their life, has been said before their very inception. It's inevitable. Our very existence is tied to repetition and similarity in a multitude of ways. If it was even conceivable that we could endlessly create then we wouldn't even be humans, we'd be gods.

2. Jobs can only do things that fit within their role in terms of abilities and utility. If they made Paladin into a tank/healer hybrid we'd be crossing into the realm of overpowered. I feel as though I don't really need to say anything more with this statement.

3. Evolution applies to more than just organic beings. As it stands with each successive advancement we're going to have to perform more and more like each other or certain jobs will die....I liken this to Cro-Magnon VS. Neanderthal. Currently Warrior is very obviously the Cro-Magnon.

In all honestly, I don't want to see the Warrior's potential to be reduced. Some of their skills may or may not be okay on other jobs but when it concerns what to do and not do, it isn't up to me though and I'm thankful for that. No matter what Square-Enix does, they'll be the perceived enemy when it's really our existence and our understanding of it that's really at fault.


EDIT: What is it with me and existentialism.....