The Ninja Superthread

[Allyrion]

Ah, thanks for that, not that useless then (still a bit meh, besides for the opener). Though some redditers claim it doesn't work on tanks (that would be kind of weird, so no idea here).

Yea, well reddit is full of liars.
It certainly works on tanks.

It's not that for add pick ups that are spread. You can attack an add that doesn't spawn with the group and give it to the tank while they can focus on positioning.
Enmity isn't that hard on tanks, but it's still harder in this game than, say, WoW which has more taunt options and ranged aggro generators for the tanks.

Then there's the matter that positioning in this game is much more important because of melee needing to hit positionals.
I find that Shadewalker and even Smoke gives such enmity control, you bring a level of stability that's much better than passing the buck of responsibility to the tanks entirely.
Few fights don't have add spawns, and you just make it that much smoother.
At least Shadewalker should see a good amount of use, unless you're lazy.


I said before two Enmity abilities was too much, but I'm okay with it in practice.
Utility is more interesting anyway, and it has has more decent use that I thought at first.
Also, Armor Crush added more to the rotation than I thought it would, in combination to the new oGCDs, I don't feel wanting with how the damage part of the rotation goes.

[Taranok]

I thought it'd be better if it was off of Shadowfang, but I'm glad it's not.
If it was, it was just be used every 18s or every other Shadowfang (the extension would be adjusted accordingly).
All 3 finishers have a decent place in the rotation.
And each of them have to be tracked because they branch at the end.

You should be able to use AE twice a minute while keeping up DE yourself.
I don't see the problem with that. Being able to use AE a lot is a perk of having a WAR.
Honestly, we have it pretty good in that regard.

MNK, for example, will almost always have to keep up their own Dragon Kick, unless they have another MNK.
BLM, SMN, BRD and MCH have to rely on a different Job to get their own resistance lowering debuff.
DRG can do his own and it affects other jobs, but no one, save another DRG, will take the pressure off him.

We can do it ourselves, and if we get a WAR then they can do it for us.
We have it the best, by far.
I don't know, maybe it's because I don't find anything that special about doing AE.
It may be the highest potency finisher but Armor Crush feels more significant because its Huton extension translates into more damage than AE.

Then, when everything is upheld, you get to actually do AE and it's great.
Even when you keep up DE yourself, Armor Crush let's you 'bank' Huton time to add more AE into certain parts of the fight.
That is the best thing about the new rotation.

The reason I'd put DE before shadowfang is that, right now, the NIN's damage is contingent on whether a WAR is in the group or not. While other classes have the option to do better for the introduction of another class, usually the exclusion of another class doesn't make you alter your rotation. The damage going up or down is whatever, as Bards deal with it with Dragoons. But if you look at a Dragoon rotation, they naturally keep piercing up as a natural consequence of their standard damage rotation.

Bards and Machinists? Same thing. Their rotation stays the same regardless of whether a Dragoon is there. Even Monks are still in this category.

Ninjas, on the other hand, aren't. They're the only class that has to alter its rotation based around the inclusion or exclusion of another class, and this leads it to be clunky. The standard rotation for a Ninja post HW (for GCD abilities) is DE > Mutilate > Shadowfang > Armor Crush > AE. This naturally works into a rotation that is DE->Shadow Fang->AC or AE, mutilate between any of these abilities as needed.

Your standard 1 minute rotation is going to be 3 DEs, 2 ACs, and 1 AE. There is no other rotation that maintains DE that allows an extra AE. Unless you mean Duality, but I don't think that counts within the context of a GCD rotation.

When you throw out an AE is when you cannot cast AC as you'd be clipping time too much. Sure, you can "spend" a buffered Huton into AE to get more damage at specific phases of the fight, but this doesn't feel particularly great within the rotation.

So we now have a rotation where our highest damage rotation is used the least amount of time, and we're constantly playing buff/debuff maintenance anyways. All the while, we are still the only class that has to modify its rotation significantly over the existence of just one class.

Right now, I still enjoy the class, I'm going to play it regardless of having access to a WAR babysitter, but without a WAR in the group, the rotation just really isn't that interesting.

[Korashy]

snip

That's a pretty good summary.

[Allyrion]

Snip.

What you're saying is basically my point, but that's why I like it.
We have synergy with another Job, but not just 'hey, my damage goes up' synergy.
We actually get to adapt our rotation dynamically to it.

If they're not there, then we have another rotation to compensate for it.
The rotation w/o the WAR is the one I actually like more because it's more involved.
And like I said, we can actually bank Huton time to get more AEs off during a certain period in the fight.
I think that feels great and satisfying because it adds a layer of planning ahead.

Personally, I like the maintenance aspect of it.
The last thing I want for the class is to have a combo that's just an automatic debuff combo, such that you take care of Shadowfang and Dancing Edge in the same go, every 18s.

Pure potency is just boring to me.
The damage combo is great because it has that limited space.
My only qualm is that I'd rather the positional on Dancing Edge so that AE can be less restricted when you actually do get to it. Fulfilling that raw damage niche.

[Taranok]

Except the rotation isn't as tight, "banking" huton really isn't that interesting a mechanic, and the rotation suffers for it. "Pure potency" may be boring to you, but being the only DPS class in the game that almost never uses its high damage rotation is boring to me.

For reference, the difference between having a warrior and not is about 180 potency per minute. Damage wise it is insignificant. This isn't why I care for AE. I just hate doing the same abilities over and over, and I feel the devs missed the point when adding AC to the rotation, in a way that it feels like they didn't really test the class fully.

Perhaps the answer lies in a middle ground though. I don't want the days of "You cast AE end after end" with a war, or "You alternate DE and AE end after end." The answer to make it feel better could be as simple as extending the amount of Huton added (to 40-45s) or extending the duration of DE/SE (it'd need to be 40s though).

Then, we still have to manage the debuff(s), which I don't mind, but we'd only need 1.5 ACs every minute, meaning we'd be able to sub out some ACs for more AEs or DEs for AEs. I enjoy the concept of a dynamic combo system, I just think it's a boring setup atm.

[Allyrion]

Except the rotation isn't as tight, "banking" huton really isn't that interesting a mechanic, and the rotation suffers for it. "Pure potency" may be boring to you, but being the only DPS class in the game that almost never uses its high damage rotation is boring to me.

For reference, the difference between having a warrior and not is about 180 potency per minute. Damage wise it is insignificant. This isn't why I care for AE. I just hate doing the same abilities over and over, and I feel the devs missed the point when adding AC to the rotation, in a way that it feels like they didn't really test the class fully.

Perhaps the answer lies in a middle ground though. I don't want the days of "You cast AE end after end" with a war, or "You alternate DE and AE end after end." The answer to make it feel better could be as simple as extending the amount of Huton added (to 40-45s) or extending the duration of DE/SE (it'd need to be 40s though).

Then, we still have to manage the debuff(s), which I don't mind, but we'd only need 1.5 ACs every minute, meaning we'd be able to sub out some ACs for more AEs or DEs for AEs. I enjoy the concept of a dynamic combo system, I just think it's a boring setup atm.

If anything needs to be extended to make room for more AE, it would definitely be Dancing Edge.
DE already dominates the finisher slot more than the others.

I would be fine with that.
Increasing AC would make the rotation with WAR even easier, while also widening the gap between having a WAR and not.
I think none of us would want that.

If AE, needs more of a place it should come at the cost of DE.
2 DE, 2 AC, 2 AE would be a perfect balance if you want to even it out.

[Taranok]

Yeah, I realized that after posting that AC would make the rotation "more AE," which defeats the purpose of a "more dynamic rotation" as a goal. But it'd need to be 40s to make it work right. That way, you do 2-3 AEs per minute (as opposed to 1 without and 4 with).

The devs could also tie a DoT or some other ability into DE that reinforces the idea of using DE every ~40 seconds, but I'm hesitant to think of "what" should be done considering the NIN's damage doesn't feel particularly awful despite looking awful (NIN damage is deceptive). The idea being that making it a requirement I feel would be beneficial. I don't like the concept of the rotation altering its priorities at all. Either way it's done, I'd prefer that over "You do 1, or 4, AEs per minute depending on having a WAR or not." This just alters the NIN too much on something outside their control in a way that isn't really interesting no matter which way you look at it.

[Allyrion]

This just alters the NIN too much on something outside their control in a way that isn't really interesting no matter which way you look at it.

No matter how you look at it.
You're entitled to having that opinion but don't act like it's objective.
It's not.

The rotation changes dynamically because you synergize with another Job.
That's interesting to me.
I don't want timers to tie in to each other either. That's part of what makes NIN more of a priority than a rotation compared to the rest.

Similarly Armor Crush's extension is interesting as it is, for me. If it's more like 40s, it becomes trivial and saving it up isn't really a thing anymore.
If it's less, it won't have the flexibility to add extra time while keeping up the rest.

I'm fine with extending DE so we can even out the rotation.
That would actually be more interesting than what we have.
But the WAR changing our rotation is a good benefit, and it's interesting because it's dynamic synergy rather than a static one.
It's also probably not going anywhere. It's been a part of being a NIN from the start.

I get that you don't like it and that's fine, but I do and I don't see any reason it should change objectively.
It doesn't need to stay objectively either, but it probably will since it's a relationship we've had with WAR from the get-go.

[silentwindfr]

exept we are playing a ninja, an assassin.... a lone wolf. the trouble with the ninja soo far, it's we are too much dependant of the warrior for increase drastically our dps (that a fact) and it alter our cluncky cycle.
synergy between jobs is nice, but not at this point, we are simply a sort of high quality pet for the warrior.

we don't forget the mudra lag that still a thing, but as ninja, we are fighting in the shadow, we aren't depending of the other for do our jobs, it what we are tell us over and over and over in the jobs quest.

but i digress let's see what we did get with heavensward:

- 52 = smoke bomb, a nice skill, if we was able to use on us. one more time a ninja that can't hide him presence... logical (go see skill 56)

- 54 = Armor crush, a nice skill for add more ninjutsu, sadly it position and the lack of new ninjutsu make it a meh tool. some say that place it behind shadow fang will have make it too easy at use, i will have place Dancing Edge behind shadowfang and leave it behind gust slash.we are the only jobs with 4 different combo to use. where the effect are only on the end of the combo. dragoon, ninja, warrior and paladin don't go over 3 combo and often them combo allows them to get 2 effect at the same time.

- 56 = Shadewalker, a great skill, but render Smoke bomb totally useless. since instead to reduce the enmity create by another it better to give our to the tank. i can see already people saying: "yes but black mage need this when the AoE" Black mage, summoner, white mage, astrologian, bard, machinist, dragoon all of them have already a skill that allows them to reduce them own enmity.

- 58 = Duality, sorry but i can't call this a good skill. 90 sec of CD for allows one weapon skill to hit two time, but no critical allowed. it's nice for add a bit of burst, but do it gamebreaking for us? do we was really need more out of global cooldown skill? i leave other judge, but for me it's too much lackluster for be called a good skill.

- 60 = Dream within a dream, this skill is....well how call it... a deception. another out of Global cooldown skill but the damage are kinda.... meh, not because it's only 300 potency (and the fact our weapon have one of the lowest base damage around) but because it's a skill that can simply critical one time on the 3 attack, the damage output is soo low and random... that it can't be called a reliable skill. the animation is amazing, the utility and damage are not.

don't get me wrong the ninja dps is not that bad, if we have a warrior and can master the cluncky cycle+mudra lag it quite good. but the jobs skill addition are meh.... from all the add we did get my favorite one is the modification of the dodge cooldown. even armor crush are lacking the skill behind for be used in synergy with it. allowing us to do more raiton is nice.... but make the jobs more and more and more repetitive. soo far my game experience of the ninja in heavensward is not fun nor fresh. it's more a chores than a game, a punishement even...

i feel they don't play ninja and more important we are still paying for the time we had a too powerfull dps (what was easily solved by changing a few skill). i will go farer, the ninja is not at the point of the machinist nor bard trouble, but in terms of game experience, the ninja is the worst of all the jobs around. it's not fluid, it's not fresh, it's not fun, it's not interesting. seriously, i feel the add almost did not change the jobs, even with more raiton, we are still casting a ninjutsu every 20 second. and the lack of true choice into the ninjutsu begin to be hard... especially when you do the jobs quest and see the npc ninja use cool skill that can be added as new interesting skill and gameplay experience.

we don't need complicate cycle, but more option for a more open experience. but more important, we need to be ninja. and soo far i feel like thief, not like a ninja.


ps: what i feel need to be more worked on:
- mudra must be done player side and ninjutsu server side, will solve a lot of trouble tie to the ninjutsu.
- add more option to the ninjutsu, different stuff like summoning ninjutsu that can call a pet for attack a different target, acting more like a dot than a pet. (yeah, i want an interceptor soo badly)
- less tool for help other, we are ninja, we are death lurking into shadows... we don't help other by covering them shortcoming, but by solving them.... pest's trouble. and if they want to add more tool like this, make them usefull and not redundant! (and more important usable on us)
- a better weaponskill experience, i can't imagine an assassin, a ninja that will not be swift and fluid in him combinaison of attack. soo far our weaponskill combo system is a mess, an absolute mess!
- finally, when they add skill to the ninja.... they need to scream ninja, not thief. we are ninja, i can understand that japanese don't feel any romance from it, since it come from them culture, but FF14 is not a japanese game only, but a worldwide game. eastern jobs like ninja and samurai are soo much loved in this side of the world, it's not without reason that samurai and ninja are soo much demanded.

[Korashy]

snip

Actually the dodge change is kinda of a nerf, since it allowed you to negate a lot of mechanics.