The Ninja Superthread

[Korashy]

Then it would have gone one of 2 routes:
1) DE with AC properties would end up on a never-falling-below-1-min Huton.
2) DE as an extender would end up not extending for too long so to not end up as in case 1 and at some point you'll have to recast Huton because of Class mechanics rather than player skill.

The thing is you already don't let Huton fall off, if you are worried about damage implications then make it do lower damage on flanking to compensate. Essentially you still want to execute most DE's from the back and only flank to renew Huton, if the ability works that way.

It just eliminates a button that's not really needed. Armor Crush seems to have been added to help out with the mudra lag and hard break in our rotation, but I find it just ends up making it awkward.

[Arkenne]

Nope, still don't like AC

Maybe there were other solutions for the Huton extension outside GCD, but this one isn't too bad. Sadly I can't agree the extent being on DE because:

Yep, we don't let Huton fall off, but thats different from it NEVER falling off... because right now it CAN fall off if you aren't careful :/
If you forget AC. If you can't AC. If you sync below 54. Etc...

DE happens once every 20 seconds, if it were to extend Huton in 20~30 seconds it would never go below 50 seconds because DE already must happen consistently every 20 seconds... might as well make Huton into a toggle, don't you think?
And if it were 5~10 seconds it would fall off at some point, and you'd be forced to recast Huton because of class mechanics.

Not only that, but DE would be constantly overwritten if more than 1 NIN is around, since no NIN would like to lose their Huton.
And what about WAR's Storm's Eye? There would be no point for them to place something that will be overwritten because the NIN don't want to lose Huton. Hurting the NIN-WAR relationship.

There is a chance Double AE would still happen but I see it being more clunky if the extent were to be on DE...

[Korashy]

snip

There is plenty of other things you can bake it into, like AE on flank instead of back, (losing the extra Position dmg, but getting the utility). I'm not opposed to any tradeoffs, I just dont see why it's an extra button. On the PC you can do some keyboard acrobatics + mouse buttons to deal with it (I'm on PC btw), but for console any button you can get rid of by merging abilities with 2 different outcomes based on conditions, is extremely helpful, hell it's also helpful for PC. This is inconvenience for the sake of inconvenience.

Essentially this is how it goes now:

Case 1: need to refresh Huton:
SE -> GS -> (move to flank) AC

Case 2: don't need to refresh huton (and DE is up)
SE -> GS -> AE

If it was baked into say AE:

Case 1: Need to refresh Huton
SE -> GS -> (move to flank) AE

Case 2: No need to refresh Huton (back pos AE for dmg)
SE -> GS -> AE

[Korashy]

This easily gets rid of the button, if you adjust the dmg values into the positional, without making really any changes besides getting rid of the button.

[Grimm08]

They could have merged AC with DE, considering the rest of the the abilities we got kind of suck, and AC is mostly just a button for the sake of another button, when a passive triggering on DE flanking would arguably work a lot smoother.

The rest of our abilities are pretty damn good, and I don't see why so many people are complaining about AC, it is a much smoother way to refresh Huton, it hits hard enough to matter and make you want to get to flank, and if it were combined with another ability, then what would we get? Another damage dealer? Some more utility that's probably already done better by another job? Personally, I love the addition of AC, it breaks up the monotony, being able to be used when you've got 40 seconds on the Huton clock, or if you've got 5, or before a boss transition that could take more than a few seconds.

[Grimm08]

As a separate ability, and not added on as a positional bonus makes sure you can use it from any side, like fights like Ravana where you have to attack from sides or the front from time to time, or a fight where the boss turns randomly for an ability, and screws up your position anyway.

Armor Crush is fine as is, our abilities are fine as is, let's just leave them be, cut our enemies down, and disappear into the Shadows.

[Korashy]

snip

Both Duality and dream in a dream are pretty much meh... AC is the only exciting thing, and that could be implemented better. It's working, but I still think it doesn't need to be it's own button, especially considering that the essence of the NIN is using different combinations for different effects (mudra's). Merging certain abilities to have choice paths, would fit well with the theme.

[Allyrion]

This easily gets rid of the button, if you adjust the dmg values into the positional, without making really any changes besides getting rid of the button.

This is a reasonable solution to reduce the ability bloat.
I'm fine with it because it still makes you have to track your timers and make a sort of branching choice with finisher.

My only issue with it is that AE will always do something for you.
Our rotation is very flexible and forgiving already. This change will make AE have little punishment unless you hit from the front.
Well, you'll still want to hit the positional when you intended to but you miss a rear attack and hit the flank....
Oh you extended Huton and did Armor Crush damage (which isn't bad).
That's a bit too forgiving for a Job that's already very forgiving.

I mean, it's not like we're nearly as bloated as MNK or DRG either, since our combo only branches at the finisher, and the second for Shadowfang.
The branching saves a lot of ability space already. If anything's bloated it's our off-gcd skills, not our weaponskills. But they make the rotation so much more active.

The Ninjutsu's very design also saves a lot of space as well.

And, quite frankly, I don't want to go back to 1-2-3 ARR rotation when there's a WAR around.
Armor Crush makes the NIN rotation feel more complete.
I'm not usually for button bloat. I agree it's a bad thing.
But our weaponskills are already very condensed since they branch off.

Adding one more finisher branch was a good thing, in my opinion.

So, I haven't read much of the thread about E.G. the NIN's new rotation with Armor Crush, but is anyone else getting the feeling that it just doesn't fit very well with the rest of the NIN's skills? The mere existence of Armor Crush basically means that you can only use Aeolian Edge about once per minute unless you have a warrior in the group, and I don't know about you, but it feels awful not being allowed to actually use my damage combo simply because of what tank I am with.

It really feels like the devs didn't playtest armor crush, and that DE should practically be merged into a new combo (such as before Shadow Fang) instead of being a combo finisher like it is now. There's too much competition in the rotation for a third finisher and it just makes the class a bit clunkier than it needs to be. Armor Crush is nice in and of itself, but I'd like to use Aeolian Edge more often than once a minute.

I thought it'd be better if it was off of Shadowfang, but I'm glad it's not.
If it was, it was just be used every 18s or every other Shadowfang (the extension would be adjusted accordingly).
All 3 finishers have a decent place in the rotation.
And each of them have to be tracked because they branch at the end.

You should be able to use AE twice a minute while keeping up DE yourself.
I don't see the problem with that. Being able to use AE a lot is a perk of having a WAR.
Honestly, we have it pretty good in that regard.

MNK, for example, will almost always have to keep up their own Dragon Kick, unless they have another MNK.
BLM, SMN, BRD and MCH have to rely on a different Job to get their own resistance lowering debuff.
DRG can do his own and it affects other jobs, but no one, save another DRG, will take the pressure off him.

We can do it ourselves, and if we get a WAR then they can do it for us.
We have it the best, by far.
I don't know, maybe it's because I don't find anything that special about doing AE.
It may be the highest potency finisher but Armor Crush feels more significant because its Huton extension translates into more damage than AE.

Then, when everything is upheld, you get to actually do AE and it's great.
Even when you keep up DE yourself, Armor Crush let's you 'bank' Huton time to add more AE into certain parts of the fight.
That is the best thing about the new rotation.

[Grimm08]

Both Duality and dream in a dream are pretty much meh...

What? So an ability to use to make your AE twice as potent (We all know that's all we use it for) and another that is a 300 potency off GCD ability with each hit having a chance to crit? The NIN community is a lot more spoiled than I expected it to be.

[Arkenne]

Double positional effects

Well, gotta say we did reach the same conclusion cuz I also would've liked a double positional effect on already existing skills, instead of a simple "Hit right: reward. Hit wrong: too bad"

Duality is fun, imo, you can feel the power surge :U!!! But that cooldown ;-;
We are of the same opinion about DwD... I mean... you can't even see the full animation 10/10 times you use it in battle :| (tho the damage is pretty cool)

As a fellow control user (on PC) gotta admit I've spent more than just a few hours just staring at my keys... but there is actually plenty space for them... surprisingly.

Again, tho there might have been other solutions aside from GCD, this one isn't too bad, really. We gain more than what we lose from it. And I personally like that when there is a WAR or another NIN in party mantaining the slashing debuff, I don't need to be jumping like a frog non-stop.