I would like "Killer" traits return

[Volcano]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the designers were on some serious stuff when they made that decision. It's easily one of the stupidest things they didn't incorporate in this game. Sprites are literally the same thing with different models and shaders. Sure, the attacks are different elementally and you can build resistance...but ice doesn't deal extra to fire and fire take normal damage from fire. It makes 0 sense, especially for a Final Fantasy game. If the player gets stressed by that then they have no business playing this game because it's not stressful nor difficult at all. Like seriously, that's a HORRIBLE excuse for not implementing the elemental wheel.

It makes 0 sense we can take a swipe to your character from a very large sword and you only take "HP" damage or a boss does a massive wave energy blast and your character doesn't disintegrate into nothing. You see my point yet?

[Tupsi]

I don't think people recall that Killer Traits in FFXI had a rather low proc rate.

Actually, the proc rate not only was boosted but was made more effective - it was boosted at the same time they boosted the Circle effects a couple years back. The only 'killer' effect that was useless was 'Empty Killer', as not only did Empties not exist outside of Promyvion and Abyssea, it had significantly lower rate than the other killer effects.

Because the moment any class appears to offer an advantage over another in a particular fight you see class-stacking and "This job only"

Happens now in FFXIV ARR.

It makes 0 sense we can take a swipe to your character from a very large sword and you only take "HP" damage or a boss does a massive wave energy blast and your character doesn't disintegrate into nothing. You see my point yet?

That's an amazing reach in response. Think about it: When you see firefighters fighting fires, do you see them fighting it with flamethrowers? Or is it..by any chance...they're fighting certain kinds with water..or even dirt? I mean be honest: Do you fight fires with Flamethrowers or Water commonly? That's how it's like when you use Fire against a Fire god..it doesn't make any logical sense. It's a video game, sure, but most FF games Ifrit hasn't..exactly been weak to Fire.

[Jasiwel]

-snip-?

Are you joking me? This has been the deal for most any game with elemental affinities. Furthermore, I even said we could do something with bosses so that elemental affinity doesn't skew difficulty. Even still, you act like Blizzard attacks suck, when they don't, and Ifrit would have a weakness to Blizzard. Fire damage goes down, Blizzard damage goes up. As for Titan, a WHM shouldn't be DPSing in that fight anyways, unless you're overgeared. On top of that, OH NO I CANT USE STONE IN TITAN LOOKS LIKE WHM IS USELESS AS A HEALER. Like, I don't even know how or why you'd use that as an argument. Sorry for being blunt, but it's not decent reasoning.

In any case, it'd make the hardcores and veterans happy because apparently this game is faceroll easy, not that we should base decisions on the hardcores/veteran player base.

It makes 0 sense we can take a swipe to your character from a very large sword and you only take "HP" damage or a boss does a massive wave energy blast and your character doesn't disintegrate into nothing. You see my point yet?

I can't tell if this is satire or not.

[Shurrikhan]

Do you fight fires with Flamethrowers or Water commonly? That's how it's like when you use Fire against a Fire god..it doesn't make any logical sense. It's a video game, sure, but most FF games Ifrit hasn't..exactly been weak to Fire.

But what exactly would be the use of that in terms of gameplay? Have an extra 9 spells that have the exact same effects as each other (170 potency, 100/50 AoE, 230 potency?) so that you can actually bring a BLM to each of the primal fights and still have your three basic damage types (direct, direct-AoE, and DoT)? It doesn't take "thinking" to move around your bars and throw out an element at the start of each different elementally-inclined boss fight. It just takes an extra step, and then you proceed to do the exact same thing. That, or you're not allowed to attend certain fights, while most other dps are not allowed to attend certain other ones. (Shiva would be the eventual current-BLM hayday.) An elemental wheel on its own does not grant tactical operability, complexity, or any greater need for skill.

The same basically goes for Killer traits, in whichever way they may be modified. That said, outside of applying such via materia, over which general secondary stats would probably be preferred (even elemental resist would probably be more popular than a specific enemy type bonus), only a couple jobs really seems inclined towards a killer trait--DRG and (maybe) PLD.

On top of that, OH NO I CANT USE STONE IN TITAN LOOKS LIKE WHM IS USELESS AS A HEALER. Like, I don't even know how or why you'd use that as an argument. Sorry for being blunt, but it's not decent reasoning.

In any case, it'd make the hardcores and veterans happy because apparently this game is faceroll easy, not that we should base decisions on the hardcores/veteran player base.

How would disabling part of only a certain small percentage of jobs' range of use in a fight make that fight "harder"? Further, not being able to use the full extent of your job as the situation would normally allow simply due to your particular attack type suddenly being invalidated is far from a non-issue.

[Tupsi]

An elemental wheel on its own does not grant tactical operability, complexity, or any greater need for skill.

That's exactly it - It wouldn't be 'on its own', elemental/monster correlation goes deeper than just "Water > Fire." Simplification is fine, but it also leads to a dull gameplay experience in the long run. The whole "x would be chosen over y" happens now and will happen no matter what you do because players can and will always find ways for the path of least resistance.

[Shurrikhan]

Simplification is fine, but it also leads to a dull gameplay experience in the long run. The whole "x would be chosen over y" happens now and will happen no matter what you do because players can and will always find ways for the path of least resistance.

I would enjoy complex additions to the elemental system as much as the next person, if not more than, but I can't honestly say that it seems worth the trouble to fundamentally revise without changes of similar depth also being sleighted for disciple of war classes and likely tanking operation as well. Short of that it won't lead to a more complex combat system as a whole so much as simply greatly change how BLM plays and slightly change how WHM plays. Cross-class ability equipping would likely have to change slightly even to make that possible/useful (not that that's a problem...).

[Just as an example, this is what I pictured as 'elemental complexity' in the past, but I know neither whether it will be doable nor whether it's even a good idea.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...450#post693450

Just keep in mind it was made during 1.x, so the spells are a bit off, as is the way BLM works, ofc.]

[Volcano]

I can't tell if this is satire or not.

It was mild sarcasm and not a poke. i was more or less making fun of the fact you are right in a small way. as things simply do not make sense in this game (or games in general. but to never question them or go insane) But unlike a certain person who is trying to grab attention (hence i did not even respond to them being oblivious), at least you kind of caught on to it.

If only the internet had a sarcastic button.

[Jasiwel]

^I thought as much. It's hard to tell in debate threads like these.

How would disabling part of only a certain small percentage of jobs' range of use in a fight make that fight "harder"? Further, not being able to use the full extent of your job as the situation would normally allow simply due to your particular attack type suddenly being invalidated is far from a non-issue.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. It looks like you're agreeing and disagreeing at the same time. MY argument is for the Elemental Wheel to actually have substance and reason for existence. As it stands, elements are pointless. For example, who the hell goes out of their way to buy Elemental Resistance equipment? It serves a negligible purpose. Sure, it's a perk if it's convenient and you have no better equipment, but what difference does it really make? A negligible difference.

My response about "disabling part of only a certain small percentage of a jobs' range" is in response to those saying it would break a job's existence. Adding Killer Traits and the Elemental Wheel won't do any of that. People aren't going to suddenly drop using WHM and all the time they spent building it up because Stone is less effective against X mob. You're partially right in that it won't make a fight harder, but my response is even more that there's no reason to use "WHM CANT STONE DURING TITANEX" as an argument.

When I started to play THM to be a BLM, I thought elemental affinity would mean something in my attacks. When I found out otherwise, I was REALLY bummed out. Sure, the rotation is complex and requires skill to use optimally, but it does get boring and redundant after a while. While this changes a lot when I hit Lvl.50, it's still bothersome that it makes no difference if I know nothing about my target other than that they do X AoE ability that I have to dodge. It makes a lot of enemies feel like damage sponges, especially as BLM.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. It looks like you're agreeing and disagreeing at the same time.

I'll try to be more clear then. I believe that elements differentiating only for element's sake (i.e. by name) have no real advantage. If all elements differentiate within a shared range of under-mechanics, then I believe the elemental wheel has a chance to work. Where one type beats another as a matter of general law, rather than through the particular undermechanics (preferably also with the possibility to still use an element against its resistant (and/or own) type by combination with other elements), I find that gameplay is only simplified and offset, and muddied in endgame content, even if a bit more interesting during leveling processes (unless that process too, is taken with full seriousness/opportunism/efficiency-seeking/etc.).

I like a system in which Fire still works against Ifrit, earth against Titan, and wind against Garuda -- but with dependency on how you use it, and possibly with risk even of absorption at times.

While this changes a lot when I hit Lvl.50, it's still bothersome that it makes no difference if I know nothing about my target other than that they do X AoE ability that I have to dodge. It makes a lot of enemies feel like damage sponges, especially as BLM.

This is sadly the case for all classes, even if a bit more noticeable on a turret class like BLM. Which is partly why I'm personally not putting much stock into DoM system revisions (elemental wheel) without melee and tank interactions also being looked into. That said, I don't think any of that will happen.

[Gilthas]

My problem with resistance is it seems to only affect players abilities on mobs and not mobs abilities on players. It feels ridiculous to me that a mob can grow resistance to heavy and stun yet i can be perpetually affected by it with no resistance to any of the abilities. It would be nice for the chars to not feel gimped in every way possible. This game feels like its stuck on rails so badly that it has become boring.

I'm pretty sure that player characters also start gaining resistance to mob debuffs during a fight. Doesn't work on everything though.

That's an amazing reach in response. Think about it: When you see firefighters fighting fires, do you see them fighting it with flamethrowers? Or is it..by any chance...they're fighting certain kinds with water..or even dirt? I mean be honest: Do you fight fires with Flamethrowers or Water commonly? That's how it's like when you use Fire against a Fire god..it doesn't make any logical sense. It's a video game, sure, but most FF games Ifrit hasn't..exactly been weak to Fire.

If you're going to be purposely dense you should know that in real life firefighters actually do sometimes use fire to fight fire.