I would like "Killer" traits return

[Tupsi]

If you want to be technical it's not directly fighting fire with fire, it's most like destroying an enemy's resources before it can restock, since it's controlled burning to avoid giving fuel to wildfires, which are more difficult to control if not surrounded by a lack of fuel

He's just finding excuses to attack me, he knew I wasn't talking about control burning, hence why I said 'commonly.'

lol I remember crimson armor, that always made me lol

Yeah it was always funny watching them being paralyzed in fear by themselves. Even then it shows just how much thought went into even 'minor' things like that in their last MMO.

[Airal]

Actually, you had to be high on the hate list rather than nearly non-existent. Dragoons had the problem of intimidating themselves or being intimidated by their Wyvern when they wore Crimson armor because of it giving you Dragon Affinity basically, so it's not targeted, just have to be in it's presence. Being targeted gave a higher chance.

That must have changed in the last 3 years as I was subscribed until early 2011 and the only way to activate a killer effect was to be the actual target, not high on the enmity list. Though if I recall the Killer effect also originated as a small haste/damage buff that was later changed to an intimidation for fear of unbalancing DPS jobs at high levels. If it's the FFXI rendition of Killer effects I don't see it being added or useful in the instance it is.

[Tupsi]

That must have changed in the last 3 years as I was subscribed until early 2011 and the only way to activate a killer effect was to be the actual target, not high on the enmity list. Though if I recall the Killer effect also originated as a small haste/damage buff that was later changed to an intimidation for fear of unbalancing DPS jobs at high levels. If it's the FFXI rendition of Killer effects I don't see it being added or useful in the instance it is.

It was, it came around the same time they boosted up the Circle effects to be a lot more useful since it made a lot more sense to do so.

[Aegis]

This thread just reminded me pretty sharply of how simple the mechanics in this game are.

No tertiary stats on weapons (entire / haste / double attack etc )

No elemental wheels or elemental aspects to rebuffs

No interaction between players' abilities (skill chains / magic bursts)

No animal interaction wheels.

This was all traded in for twitch mechanics and 'balance' whatever that is.

Edit:.Also no real resource management. For 99% of content, running out of mp / tp just isn't an issue. (Alright, tanks sometimesrun out of TP but by that point they have an unassailable enmity lead)

[Wobi]

I don't think people recall that Killer Traits in FFXI had a rather low proc rate and outside of a Beastmaster or Blue Mage were more or less worthless. Besides the occasional intimidation proc they also affected resistance rates of attacks and additional effects. Such as with Blue Mage the effect of a plant based attack that would occasionally apply the add'l effect: Slow. If the mob type was strong against the type association of the attack it was more likely to resist.

As for the elemental wheel, this was also based on resistances. Water-type mobs were more likely to resist a fire based attack, it could occasionally hit for full damage but would likely be resisted to half or even a quarter of the potential. This would obviously lead you to use a thunder based attack to ensure the likeliness of a full damage attack, it also increased the chance of a critical proc by a bit. As the elemental wheel is now split between Conjurer and Thaumaturge they would have to retool the entire story line and lore as well as reassign all the abilities for such a thing to be added again. This would also require every mob to have resistances or weaknesses to make such an addition more than a pointless gesture. I actually preferred how THM/BLM worked towards the end of 1.0 (or even before when we had Light and Dark based attacks) but given the pace of combat in 2.0 onward they would have to basically give BLM an infinite MP button or keep the astral/umbral flip to restore MP technique.

Honestly it's easier to balance things the way they have it, there is a reason that FFXI had only niche appeal and they were very forthcoming that FFXIV is not that kind of game and actively worked to simply certain mechanics to make the game more inclusive. Because the moment any class appears to offer an advantage over another in a particular fight you see class-stacking and "This job only" in shouts/party finder/etc. If you think otherwise we have 10+ years of data in FFXI proving this happens every time.

[Brine_Gildchaff]

Because the moment any class appears to offer an advantage over another in a particular fight you see class-stacking and "This job only" in shouts/party finder/etc. If you think otherwise we have 10+ years of data in FFXI proving this happens every time.

You don't even need to look at XI to see this. Have people already forgotten the potato-egi solo tanking strat for Ramuh EX that spawned waves of parties that would refuse to take any tanks? A stance that we had people in this very forum defending as a desirable situation?

[Tupsi]

I don't think people recall that Killer Traits in FFXI had a rather low proc rate.

Actually, the proc rate not only was boosted but was made more effective - it was boosted at the same time they boosted the Circle effects a couple years back. The only 'killer' effect that was useless was 'Empty Killer', as not only did Empties not exist outside of Promyvion and Abyssea, it had significantly lower rate than the other killer effects.

Because the moment any class appears to offer an advantage over another in a particular fight you see class-stacking and "This job only"

Happens now in FFXIV ARR.

It makes 0 sense we can take a swipe to your character from a very large sword and you only take "HP" damage or a boss does a massive wave energy blast and your character doesn't disintegrate into nothing. You see my point yet?

That's an amazing reach in response. Think about it: When you see firefighters fighting fires, do you see them fighting it with flamethrowers? Or is it..by any chance...they're fighting certain kinds with water..or even dirt? I mean be honest: Do you fight fires with Flamethrowers or Water commonly? That's how it's like when you use Fire against a Fire god..it doesn't make any logical sense. It's a video game, sure, but most FF games Ifrit hasn't..exactly been weak to Fire.

[Shurrikhan]

Do you fight fires with Flamethrowers or Water commonly? That's how it's like when you use Fire against a Fire god..it doesn't make any logical sense. It's a video game, sure, but most FF games Ifrit hasn't..exactly been weak to Fire.

But what exactly would be the use of that in terms of gameplay? Have an extra 9 spells that have the exact same effects as each other (170 potency, 100/50 AoE, 230 potency?) so that you can actually bring a BLM to each of the primal fights and still have your three basic damage types (direct, direct-AoE, and DoT)? It doesn't take "thinking" to move around your bars and throw out an element at the start of each different elementally-inclined boss fight. It just takes an extra step, and then you proceed to do the exact same thing. That, or you're not allowed to attend certain fights, while most other dps are not allowed to attend certain other ones. (Shiva would be the eventual current-BLM hayday.) An elemental wheel on its own does not grant tactical operability, complexity, or any greater need for skill.

The same basically goes for Killer traits, in whichever way they may be modified. That said, outside of applying such via materia, over which general secondary stats would probably be preferred (even elemental resist would probably be more popular than a specific enemy type bonus), only a couple jobs really seems inclined towards a killer trait--DRG and (maybe) PLD.

On top of that, OH NO I CANT USE STONE IN TITAN LOOKS LIKE WHM IS USELESS AS A HEALER. Like, I don't even know how or why you'd use that as an argument. Sorry for being blunt, but it's not decent reasoning.

In any case, it'd make the hardcores and veterans happy because apparently this game is faceroll easy, not that we should base decisions on the hardcores/veteran player base.

How would disabling part of only a certain small percentage of jobs' range of use in a fight make that fight "harder"? Further, not being able to use the full extent of your job as the situation would normally allow simply due to your particular attack type suddenly being invalidated is far from a non-issue.

[Tupsi]

An elemental wheel on its own does not grant tactical operability, complexity, or any greater need for skill.

That's exactly it - It wouldn't be 'on its own', elemental/monster correlation goes deeper than just "Water > Fire." Simplification is fine, but it also leads to a dull gameplay experience in the long run. The whole "x would be chosen over y" happens now and will happen no matter what you do because players can and will always find ways for the path of least resistance.

[Shurrikhan]

Simplification is fine, but it also leads to a dull gameplay experience in the long run. The whole "x would be chosen over y" happens now and will happen no matter what you do because players can and will always find ways for the path of least resistance.

I would enjoy complex additions to the elemental system as much as the next person, if not more than, but I can't honestly say that it seems worth the trouble to fundamentally revise without changes of similar depth also being sleighted for disciple of war classes and likely tanking operation as well. Short of that it won't lead to a more complex combat system as a whole so much as simply greatly change how BLM plays and slightly change how WHM plays. Cross-class ability equipping would likely have to change slightly even to make that possible/useful (not that that's a problem...).

[Just as an example, this is what I pictured as 'elemental complexity' in the past, but I know neither whether it will be doable nor whether it's even a good idea.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...450#post693450

Just keep in mind it was made during 1.x, so the spells are a bit off, as is the way BLM works, ofc.]