Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[AdvancedWind]

*All* elements is a stretch.. but having the most control over the basic elemental wheel is traditionally always given to Black Mages. That post you linked.. I can't believe so many ppl fell for that as if that supported your argument AT ALL. One of your 'points' you name one game out the entire series and call that a tradition? And 3 outta 5 of your other 'points' actually support Altena's arguement.. And then the 1st point is just wrong ( which you admint you didn't do thorough research..). So.. uh.. kay?

So I actually did my research once again. Listing games with defined job system.

Final Fantasy I Black Magic: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/M...29#Black_Magic (Quake is here, but it's techinically an instant kill move, non-elemental)

Final Fantasy III Black Magic: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/C...II_Black_Magic (FTI + Quake now a proper earth elemental spells)

Final Fantasy V Black Magic

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/C..._V_Black_Magic (Fire, Thunder, Ice onry)

Final Fantasy Tactics Black Mage , Final Fantasy Tactics Advance Black Mage, Final Fantasy Tactics A2 Black Mage

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/B..._%28Tactics%29

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/B...ics_Advance%29

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/B...8Tactics_A2%29

(Fire, Thunder, Ice onry)

And now games without a defined job system

Final Fantasy II Black Magic: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/C...II_Black_Magic (Fire, Thunder, Ice onry)

FFIV: Palom and Porom do learn Quake as black magic.

FFVII. FFVIII: Has no "black magic" definition

FFIX: Party black mage learns Fire, thunder, ice and one water spell

FFX: Fire, Ice, Water and Thunder are Black magic

FFXI+: Entire elemental wheel is considered black magic

You miiight have a bit of a point with quake since it was on I and III, but not the full elemental wheel. FFXI is the only job system FF game in which black mage has access to all elements. Only after XI that games really started considering all elemental magic as black magic

I gotta leave work, else I'd actually check black mage movesets in the chocobo spin off games.

[Exn]

You miiight have a bit of a point with quake since it was on I and III, but not the full elemental wheel. FFXI is the only job system FF game in which black mage has access to all elements. Only after XI that games really started considering all elemental magic as black magic

You didn't need to go and start looking it up again, as it was already taken care of earlier in this thread. I appreciate your fervor though. Again, I didn't say BLM has the full elemental wheel, just that it always had the most control of the elemental wheel, in comparison to the other classes of a particular title.

In relation to XIV, I don't really care too much as the entire battle system was redesigned to accomodate this change. Really, I preferred the older 1.0 battle system, before mages lost half their spell set, but that is long gone now. Though, BLM definetly could still use some work to make it a more exciting and dynamic job to play.

[Zantetsuken]

I prefer this fix: Individual JOB restrictions/licenses on cross-class abilities and spells.

How it works now:

BLM can use all THM skills as well as all shareable class skills from both PGL and ARC.
WHM can use all CNJ skills as well as all shareable class skills from both GLD and PGL.

How it might work with individual job skill restrictions/licenses:

BLM gains access to all THM skills except Necrogenesis and Parsimony. - Can equip: Aero(ra), Water(ra), and Stone(ra), Decoy, Chameleon, Second Wind, and Stoneskin.

WHM gains access to all CNJ skills except Aero(ra), Water(ra), and Stone(ra). - Can equip: Resonance, Sanguine Rite, Outmaneuver, Sentinel, Tempered Will, Chameleon, Featherfoot, and Second Wind.


An approach like this would have several benefits over the current system:

• Easier to Balance - Future class skills and spells could be given permissions only to certain jobs, therefore making the sheer volume of balancing much less.
• Allows for greater distinctions between jobs and classes than currently exists. No longer is WHM just a CNJ++. Restricting CNJ elemental spells to only other Classes (or BLM), allows WHM to be a focused party healer, with a larger menu of healing support skills to choose from.
• Allows for broad expansion of current Jobs when new classes are released.

There are drawbacks as well though:

• Maxing a current Job requires only 2 sub-classes be leveled. Under this system, that number could go up to 4-5.
• Some players may be annoyed with the fact that they need to level GLD to 40+ just to play their WHM properly.

[Altena]

As I have stated multiple times, if you guys can come up with another alternative to balance elemental affinity (perhaps with a 3rd mage job, such as Blue Mage or Green Mage) then I am all ears! The OP was just a suggestion on how it could be balanced. I'm not going to spit back arguments about all the stuff that was said since my last post because it has already been said in the previous 29 pages.

Zantet's post is a good example in how to make this thread progress.

In regards to that Zantets the only issue I can see with this is it still doesn't balance the wheel, so CNJ may as well keep their spells, unless it was more about opening up the possibility of balancing it in future level caps - then that would be a pretty good solution.

It would also improve the class/job differentiation.

[Kinseykinz]

I prefer this fix: Individual JOB restrictions/licenses on cross-class abilities and spells.

How it works now:

BLM can use all THM skills as well as all shareable class skills from both PGL and ARC.
WHM can use all CNJ skills as well as all shareable class skills from both GLD and PGL.

How it might work with individual job skill restrictions/licenses:

BLM gains access to all THM skills except Necrogenesis and Parsimony. - Can equip: Aero(ra), Water(ra), and Stone(ra), Decoy, Chameleon, Second Wind, and Stoneskin.

WHM gains access to all CNJ skills except Aero(ra), Water(ra), and Stone(ra). - Can equip: Resonance, Sanguine Rite, Outmaneuver, Sentinel, Tempered Will, Chameleon, Featherfoot, and Second Wind.

Except this would need to happen to ALL classes and Jobs in order to be balanced...

So what skills should PLD drop from GLA to gain from CNJ...and how will this help them as main tank?
What skills should BRD drop from Archer but gain from from CNJ...yeah, CNJ. I'm sure that'd balance out and keep bard DPS levels decent.
What skills should WAR drop from MRD but gain from GLA...and how will that not make them overpower PLD as tank rendering PLD useless. :P

Also, by what in game dynamic can Black Mage suddenly equip skills that don't even come from one of the base classes required to unlocking the role in the first place? If your intention is that the 'skills each job would really want' are handed to them, regardless of the base class they come from (IE NOT one of the 2 classes required for unlocking that job), then you've just made the class system useless...


Also, Holy can't be White Mages only defensive spell...and that is all you're leaving them with. Just because they are supposed to be Main Healers doesn't mean we should make them sitting ducks. (Just to be clear, every class/job has at least one self-heal skill available to them so that they can heal themselves in an 'oh crap moment'...WHM has heals naturally they need a nuke to defend themselves in an 'oh crap moment') Holy is not a practical spell as it eats all of WHM's MP.



The jobs are supposed to just amplify the base classes natural strengths....everything else has been said before about the hows and whys.

[Reika]

From the Main Final Fantasy XIV page:

Conjurer's domain is based in nature. They are not restricted to light for their magic, nor should they be effectively neutered from offensive magic because of what those who chose conjurer /might/ become.

TLDR: Conjurers have a right to self defense.

And then you look on the page for WHM and it says nothing about conjory, but all about delivering their allies from the hands of death.

[whoopeeragon]

And then you look on the page for WHM and it says nothing about conjory, but all about delivering their allies from the hands of death.

From the page:

Although the art subsequently became forbidden, it is now in the midst of a revival at the hands of the Padjal, chosen of the elementals.

Note that it was chosen by the elementals, not by the divine or the raptured. By the ELEMENTALS.

[Alaltus]

Who says it needs to be balanced in the way you describe? the game won't implode if stone doesn't hit for 999. But i'll give it a go anyway even if this is a bit beyound just changing Black Mage and White Mage. I may as well put down the sort of thing i would like to see from the class/job system. I still want to see what SE will come out with in beta yet however.

In this example the classes in question can switch between the two jobs or vice versa, depending on how you want to look at it. The lore i'm going with here is that conjurer is the school of magic residing over the elements of nature and thaumaturge is the school of magic residing over the elements of destruction. White mage is a path to entreat aid from the elementals by soothing and calming them(Or something like that). Black mage is the path of angering them and using their wrath against your foes.

Note: i'm not listing every single spell a class/job would/could have just throwing down the relevant ones to describe the idea.

Conjurer - Stone/ra, Aero/ra, Water/ra, Cure, Stoneskin, Blink, Aqua Veil, Barstone, Baraero, Barwater.

Thaumaturge - Fire/ra, Blizzard/ra, Thunder/ra, Cure, Blaze Spikes*, Ice Spikes*, Shock Spikes*, Barfire, Barblizzard, Barthunder.

(*just an example but bear in mind they could work very differently from before.)

White Mage

White Mage provides the rest of the cure line, ailment removal line, divine spells etc etc but at the cost of their offensive elemental spells (possibly a Sacrifice line instead of Cure in the case of Thaumaturge?)

Conjurer ~ White Mage - Cure/ra/ga, Stoneskin, Blink, Aqua Veil, Barstonera*, Baraera*, Barwatera*.

Thaumaturge ~ White Mage - Cure/ra/ga, Blaze Spikes, Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes, Barfira*, Barblizzara*, Barthundara*.

(*Single target barspells upgrade to aoe ra spells upon switching)

A white mage thaumaturge would differentiate itself from a white mage conjurer by what elements it used to aid the party. So while a conjurer white mage would have stoneskin, blink and aqua veil as an example. Thaumaturge would have a completely different set of elemental enhancing spells. You could do the same with Bar spells making one kind of white mage prevalent over the other, depending on the content. Though restricting barspells specifically may not be desireable and not a must.

Black Mage

Black Mage provides the ancient magic corresponding to the elements weilded by the equipped class. Certain utility based debuff spells, dark spells etc etc but at the cost of Cure and their elemental enhancement spells.

Conjurer ~ Black Mage - Stone/ra, Aero/ra, Water/ra, Quake, Tornado, Flood

Thaumaturge ~ Black Mage - Fire/ra, Blizzard/ra, Thunder/ra, Flare, Freeze, Burst,

With Black mage it works much the same way, focusing on the classes strengths for the role. Black mage conjurer would specialise in earth, wind, water damage output. Learning quake, tornado and flood instead of flare etc. I'm not talking about implementing these spells in the same utility mess as they were in 1.0 but in their raw damage dealing form.

All of the combinations would be relatively the same just differ in what elements they focus on to get the job done. This limits black mage's ability to produce optimal output in some content whilst also allowing them more access to the elements (provided they lv Conjurer). This limits white mage's dd power whilst allowing for more benefits from multiple white mage within a party/group as well as increases the possible pool of white mages in game. As for what abilities and such each class would have and lend to their jobs roles i'll leave that up to your imagination. =P

TLDR: White mage and black mage could benefit from being more open to other magic disciplines rather than being tied down to a single class.

[Kinseykinz]

Conjurer - Stone/ra, Aero/ra, Water/ra, Cure, Stoneskin, Blink, Aqua Veil, Barstone, Baraero, Barwater.

Thaumaturge - Fire/ra, Blizzard/ra, Thunder/ra, Cure, Blaze Spikes*, Ice Spikes*, Shock Spikes*, Barfire, Barblizzard, Barthunder.


Conjurer ~ Black Mage - Stone/ra, Aero/ra, Water/ra, Quake, Tornado, Flood

Thaumaturge ~ Black Mage - Fire/ra, Blizzard/ra, Thunder/ra, Flare, Freeze, Burst,


TLDR: White mage and black mage could benefit from being more open to other magic disciplines rather than being tied down to a single class.

1. If you had 2 jobs split across two classes, that would make even less sense to most people. People would constantly be asking 'why didn't they just lump that all together.' The reason this topic is even on the forums currently, is because some people don't think CNJ/WHM having the stone/aero line of spells over BLM is wrong. So you're basically asking for more of this 'split skills' stuff not more.

2. Once again, you can't just change the rules for mages and NOT change them for all other classes/jobs...so you DO have to consider how this would balance and be done with the other party roles. (I know you were trying to save time, but you must balance all party roles to make any change like this balanced and possible)

3. Elemental Bar-spells and Spike spells are potentially slotted for other mage casters or as higher level CNJ/WHM THM/BLM spells.

4. If you wanted to only be a 'Black Mage' or 'White Mage' you would have to fully level both THM and CNJ to cap so that you could switch between the roles as needed. (which is exactly what we had to do under the old pre-job system and many people hated that)

5. This would limit what types of battle and dungeon content could be created. To my knowledge we will not be able to switch jobs/classes once we enter and instanced dungeon or battle in ARR.

[Alaltus]

1. If you had 2 jobs split across two classes, that would make even less sense to most people. People would constantly be asking 'why didn't they just lump that all together.' The reason this topic is even on the forums currently, is because some people don't think CNJ/WHM having the stone/aero line of spells over BLM is wrong. So you're basically asking for more of this 'split skills' stuff not more.

Well you can see it that way sure but the main concept is that the classes are just different forms of fighting that you can choose from as the job. Like building up weapon profiency. It's no worse than having to level every other class to 30 or more.

2. Once again, you can't just change the rules for mages and NOT change them for all other classes/jobs...so you DO have to consider how this would balance and be done with the other party roles. (I know you were trying to save time, but you must balance all party roles to make any change like this balanced and possible)

I agree just illustrating one way how jobs in this case whm and blm could harness both schools of magic.

3. Elemental Bar-spells and Spike spells are potentially slotted for other mage casters or as higher level CNJ/WHM THM/BLM spells.

Keyword: potentially, i can use them as an example without the sky falling. Any and all skills are potentially able to be given to another class.

4. If you wanted to only be a 'Black Mage' or 'White Mage' you would have to fully level both THM and CNJ to cap so that you could switch between the roles as needed. (which is exactly what we had to do under the old pre-job system and many people hated that)

I'm not trying to suggest it's a perfect solution but unlike the 1.0 debacle the spells and skills you have access to will not be just about all available to each and every class. In this case with jobs you would have to level 2 classes... maybe more later. Though in the case of melee classes you'd be choosing between differing styles of damaging enemies so i'll admit the change would probbably be less extreme for them.

5. This would limit what types of battle and dungeon content could be created. To my knowledge we will not be able to switch jobs/classes once we enter and instanced dungeon or battle in ARR.

SE will design content around the systems they design if thats what you mean by limit. The whole point i'm making is that a Black Mage would not be able to go into a dungeon and casually switch between each element blasting away at optimal output. That doesn't mean they would be useless but they would have to consider wether thaumaturge(fire, ice, thunder) or conjurer(stone, wind, water) would be best for the run as a whole. Like you might decide to go thaumaturge because most of the enemies are weak to thunder in a dungeon or you might go conjurer because the final boss is weak to earth. Rather than "ooo look monsters everyone cast the elemental aoe spell they are weak to on my mark" all enemies die before getting to act being the answer to largely every encounter.