Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Alhanelem]

Flare is aoe around you, that alone makes it useless.

Subjective opinion. If you know you have a few seconds where the mob is not going to use a deadly AoE, you can cast it. It's also particularly fun with BLMs casting it in a group.

Necromancer in WoW had some fire spells similar to this that required enemies to be nearby (and on the ground)- that didn't stop anyone from using it in that game.

Spells like this can be effective if you know when to use them. I had a lot of fun with some friends on chocobo escorts where we would run ahead to where we knew the enemies would spawn, and start casting flare (because it didn't require a target) before the mobs spawned, timing it so it would hit them as soon as they appeared and instantly annihilating them. You can't do something like this with any other spell other than blizzara.

Yeah I do demand it be reworked. Because the split was the dumbest idea ever.

Funny, nobody complained about this in the other 12 Final Fantasies where the black mage (or most black-magey character) didn't have every element. So why is this only a problem now?

I gotta leave work, else I'd actually check black mage movesets in the chocobo spin off games.

I have FFF Chocobo's Dungeon on Wii, and Chocobo only uses thunder fire and ice on black mage. Interestingly, Chocobo uses the elemental ninjustu from FFXI of earth wind and water as Ninja.

[ispano]

Warlock in WoW had some fire spells similar to this that required enemies to be nearby (and on the ground)- that didn't stop anyone from using it in that game.

Was called Hellfire, and the reason it wasn't used as much, or only in certain situations is because it was channeled AND you took the damage as well.

[Jinrya-Geki]

Subjective opinion. If you know you have a few seconds where the mob is not going to use a deadly AoE, you can cast it. It's also particularly fun with BLMs casting it in a group.

Necromancer in WoW had some fire spells similar to this that required enemies to be nearby (and on the ground)- that didn't stop anyone from using it in that game.

Spells like this can be effective if you know when to use them. I had a lot of fun with some friends on chocobo escorts where we would run ahead to where we knew the enemies would spawn, and start casting flare (because it didn't require a target) before the mobs spawned, timing it so it would hit them as soon as they appeared and instantly annihilating them. You can't do something like this with any other spell other than blizzara.

Funny, nobody complained about this in the other 12 Final Fantasies where the black mage (or most black-magey character) didn't have every element. So why is this only a problem now?

I have FFF Chocobo's Dungeon on Wii, and Chocobo only uses thunder fire and ice on black mage. Interestingly, Chocobo uses the elemental ninjustu from FFXI of earth wind and water as Ninja.

Cause in every other final fantasy, Fire/Blizzard/Thunder did almost the same damage as each other. They were equals, if you ran into a mob that was fire-based, you could you thunder or ice to do the same damage.

In FFXIV if you run into a lightning-based mob you are screwed. You can't do nearly the same damage to a mob that isn't lightning resistant. That is my problem, it's not traditional.

And on the truly rare situation a mob was strong against fire/lightning/ice like some in FFIX or FFII. Some bosses resisted all magics but one. You know which one that was? Flare. So yeah when tradition if all spells failed flare would pick up the slack. It doesn't here.

Necromancers usually have stamina as one of their main stats so they have HP to spare. They can take a hit or two.

On trash mobs, flare and blizzara are ok. But I would gladly give them up for far range single target spells for high damage. I want to be a high damage caster, not a smuck garbage man. Someone else can have that job.

@Kinsey
It makes no sense for Black mage for to have scourge/scourge II and 2 other spells, we thrive on our role to do damage.

While the white mage is to thrive on healing, but with Banish/Banishga Holy/Holy II, you get the option to do mnore than just heal at certain points.

Black mages role has only ever been to deal damage, bio in previous games did high damage with a small chance to DoT. So why should we be the one's limited to 2 combos? White mage doesn't need to have super high damage, that's our job, so we should have the spells that meet the enemies weakness. Which is why we should have all elemental spells.

If you give use two combos such as scourge/ scourge II and Unholy/ Unholy II then we just end up at the same bad place, mob resistance. We black mages hit a wall of mob resistance, we could never exploit a mobs weakness therefore the developers would have to remove resistances for us to be effective.

[Kallera]

Cause in every other final fantasy, Fire/Blizzard/Thunder did almost the same damage as each other. They were equals, if you ran into a mob that was fire-based, you could you thunder or ice to do the same damage.

In FFXIV if you run into a lightning-based mob you are screwed. You can't do nearly the same damage to a mob that isn't lightning resistant. That is my problem, it's not traditional.

And on the truly rare situation a mob was strong against fire/lightning/ice like some in FFIX or FFII. Some bosses resisted all magics but one. You know which one that was? Flare. So yeah when tradition if all spells failed flare would pick up the slack. It doesn't here.

Necromancers usually have stamina as one of their main stats so they have HP to spare. They can take a hit or two.

On trash mobs, flare and blizzara are ok. But I would gladly give them up for far range single target spells for high damage. I want to be a high damage caster, not a smuck garbage man. Someone else can have that job.

@Kinsey
It makes no sense for Black mage for to have scourge/scourge II and 2 other spells, we thrive on our role to do damage.

While the white mage is to thrive on healing, but with Banish/Banishga Holy/Holy II, you get the option to do mnore than just heal at certain points.

Black mages role has only ever been to deal damage, bio in previous games did high damage with a small chance to DoT. So why should we be the one's limited to 2 combos? White mage doesn't need to have super high damage, that's our job, so we should have the spells that meet the enemies weakness. Which is why we should have all elemental spells.

If you give use two combos such as scourge/ scourge II and Unholy/ Unholy II then we just end up at the same bad place, mob resistance. We black mages hit a wall of mob resistance, we could never exploit a mobs weakness therefore the developers would have to remove resistances for us to be effective.

Welcome to the world of DD classes, where you get to find out that Black Mage is not the best, quickest, "Take em along for world firsts!" answer to everything. Using one spell as a crutch for your damage is your problem, it is not ours, it is not White Mage, it is not Conjurer.

[Kinseykinz]

It makes no sense for Black mage for to have scourge/scourge II and 2 other spells, we thrive on our role to do damage.


Black mages role has only ever been to deal damage, bio in previous games did high damage with a small chance to DoT. So why should we be the one's limited to 2 combos? White mage doesn't need to have super high damage, that's our job, so we should have the spells that meet the enemies weakness. Which is why we should have all elemental spells.
.

Because Damage spells does not only mean 'Elemental spells'. That is where this discussion keeps tripping. Also, you don't need to be the best DD in every situation. No other DD is. Live with it, afterall, they do.

[Radacci]

I don't see why BLM must be OP in every fight, melees aren't; and BLM don't care about that do they? that's why in 1.0, in some fights you weren't welcome, unless you were BLM.
It's silly notion that BLM should always be able to do 2x damage, because there should always be some enemy around, with elemental weakness...Why not ask for all mobs to be weak to piercing damage, so DRG by default can do 2x damage on them? or to swords, so GLD can always do 2x damage, since they are so weak anyways.
I get it BLM is top damage dealer, but they do a lot of damage even without weaknesses.

[fusional]

I get it BLM is top damage dealer

yeah but not really. blm is the *easiest* and most consistent damage dealer, but rarely the ideal/top DD in most scenarios

In FFXIV if you run into a lightning-based mob you are screwed

okay then, so what about mobs with really high melee defense?

edit: not sure why i even bothered asking this question. it's pretty apparent how biased you are on the issue.

[Jinrya-Geki]

yeah but not really. blm is the *easiest* and most consistent damage dealer, but rarely the ideal/top DD in most scenarios



okay then, so what about mobs with really high melee defense?

edit: not sure why i even bothered asking this question. it's pretty apparent how biased you are on the issue.

Mobs with high melee defense? Is that why you usually have Slash/Pierce/Blunt damage? They resist one of the three so you switch to a weapon with the attribute on it. Like Drg in XI that had a polearm that did blunt damage, not piercing.

Welcome to the world of DD classes, where you get to find out that Black Mage is not the best, quickest, "Take em along for world firsts!" answer to everything. Using one spell as a crutch for your damage is your problem, it is not ours, it is not White Mage, it is not Conjurer.

It's our problem and it's the fault of developers and white mages who want to DD. You don't need to. Wizards/Black Mages/ Sorcerers any Damage dealer has had multiple ways of damaging any target. It's been the role since when games with knights and wizards since they been made. So sorry that I want the traditional power house all-situtation caster.

It's not like I even have a god damn choice, theres only two god damn casters and one is supposed to be a healer.

Because Damage spells does not only mean 'Elemental spells'. That is where this discussion keeps tripping. Also, you don't need to be the best DD in every situation. No other DD is. Live with it, afterall, they do.

Yes, black mages do, this is why we have the lowest hp and lowest defense. We are supposed to have the highest damage, and in this game the highest damage is determined by the resistance of the enemy. So if I don't have every spell for every weakness, then I can't do the highest damage.

[fusional]

Mobs with high melee defense? Is that why you usually have Slash/Pierce/Blunt damage? They resist one of the three so you switch to a weapon with the attribute on it. Like Drg in XI that had a polearm that did blunt damage, not piercing.

first, they did away with damage types. second, how does a dragoon switch from pierce to another type of damage in a game where the armory system is based on equipping weapons to switch jobs?

why are you basing your arguments on how things worked in XI? this isn't XI, no matter how much you want it to be. so how about framing your arguments in the context of XIV, which is what this game is, rather than XI?

It's our problem and it's the fault of developers and white mages who want to DD. You don't need to. Wizards/Black Mages/ Sorcerers any Damage dealer has had multiple ways of damaging any target. It's been the role since when games with knights and wizards since they been made. So sorry that I want the traditional power house all-situtation caster.

and again you base your argument on how things work in XI. so let first let me reiterate: you're not talking about XI. you're talking about XIV. (and if you try to play the "but in other FF games" card, what about other FF games where any character can have elemental nukes, regardless of 'job'? seems exceptions occur in games other than XIV, and yet it's convenient for you to forget this)

second, i don't even *understand* your argument. there's no basis. how does a WHM being bored on coincounter or MM (because the paladin covers most all of his own healing) and throwing in some nukes to help speed things up *in any way* impact your ability as a black mage to damage coincounter? hint: it doesn't. so how is it a problem? and even if you have *two* WHM and they *both* get bored and start nuking, they're still not impacting your ability to damage coincounter and they're still not taking a raid slot from you simply by virtue of having elemental nukes. nobody goes "oh, well we could take a BLM but why not just take a WHM instead because stone and aero are just so OP!"

i mean, unless they're doing a whm moogle burn. but then what's your gripe? don't people BLM burn enough things? hint: yes, they do.

oh, and you know that thing about being an all-situation caster that you want in XIV? name a single endgame situation in XIV 1.0 where BLM wasn't a desirable DD. i'll seriously wait. and i'm gonna be waiting a really long time because really the only argument you'd have is Ifrit Extreme- but even that's not true. adding one BLM to the group speeds the fight up *so dramatically* that you exponentially decrease the number of bad situations the group can get themselves into simply by virtue of preventing the fight from lasting long enough for it to happen. the only reason PUGs didn't use it is because it basically forces you to solo heal it, and PUGs always wanted to be safe with 2 healers.

so again- what is your argument based on? XI? you're just upset that BLM doesn't have *all* of the elemental tools? and yet, it has some of the best single-target DPS (even on stuff that isn't really weak to magic! go figure) and some of the best aoe DPS (*except* on amalja)

Yes, black mages do, this is why we have the lowest hp and lowest defense. We are supposed to have the highest damage, and in this game the highest damage is determined by the resistance of the enemy. So if I don't have every spell for every weakness, then I can't do the highest damage.

wrong again. not only will you be hard pressed to ever find a dev statement calling BLM the king of dps... you still have the capacity to do the highest damage, even when an enemy isn't necessarily weak to a particular element. example: chimera. not weak to fire. not weak to thunder. and yet completely in spite of a ranged advantage, BLM is still preferred because it's easier for them to maintain a proper DPS rotation (ie: you don't have to time your directional combos to make sure you don't get ganked by breath or traps) and therefore safely top the damage meters. because in XIV 1.0 the secret to doing the highest damage was mostly in your ability/spell rotation.

if you could frame your arguments in the context of XIV itself maybe you'd have more people on your side, but you keep talking about XIV with your head in XI's clouds.

[Jinrya-Geki]

first, they did away with damage types. second, how does a dragoon switch from pierce to another type of damage in a game where the armory system is based on equipping weapons to switch jobs?

why are you basing your arguments on how things worked in XI? this isn't XI, no matter how much you want it to be. so how about framing your arguments in the context of XIV, which is what this game is, rather than XI?



and again you base your argument on how things work in XI. so let first let me reiterate: you're not talking about XI. you're talking about XIV. (and if you try to play the "but in other FF games" card, what about other FF games where any character can have elemental nukes, regardless of 'job'? seems exceptions occur in games other than XIV, and yet it's convenient for you to forget this)

second, i don't even *understand* your argument. there's no basis. how does a WHM being bored on coincounter or MM (because the paladin covers most all of his own healing) and throwing in some nukes to help speed things up *in any way* impact your ability as a black mage to damage coincounter? hint: it doesn't. so how is it a problem? and even if you have *two* WHM and they *both* get bored and start nuking, they're still not impacting your ability to damage coincounter and they're still not taking a raid slot from you simply by virtue of having elemental nukes. nobody goes "oh, well we could take a BLM but why not just take a WHM instead because stone and aero are just so OP!"

i mean, unless they're doing a whm moogle burn. but then what's your gripe? don't people BLM burn enough things? hint: yes, they do.

oh, and you know that thing about being an all-situation caster that you want in XIV? name a single endgame situation in XIV 1.0 where BLM wasn't a desirable DD. i'll seriously wait. and i'm gonna be waiting a really long time because really the only argument you'd have is Ifrit Extreme- but even that's not true. adding one BLM to the group speeds the fight up *so dramatically* that you exponentially decrease the number of bad situations the group can get themselves into simply by virtue of preventing the fight from lasting long enough for it to happen. the only reason PUGs didn't use it is because it basically forces you to solo heal it, and PUGs always wanted to be safe with 2 healers.

so again- what is your argument based on? XI? you're just upset that BLM doesn't have *all* of the elemental tools? and yet, it has some of the best single-target DPS (even on stuff that isn't really weak to magic! go figure) and some of the best aoe DPS (*except* on amalja)



wrong again. not only will you be hard pressed to ever find a dev statement calling BLM the king of dps... you still have the capacity to do the highest damage, even when an enemy isn't necessarily weak to a particular element. example: chimera. not weak to fire. not weak to thunder. and yet completely in spite of a ranged advantage, BLM is still preferred because it's easier for them to maintain a proper DPS rotation (ie: you don't have to time your directional combos to make sure you don't get ganked by breath or traps) and therefore safely top the damage meters. because in XIV 1.0 the secret to doing the highest damage was mostly in your ability/spell rotation.

if you could frame your arguments in the context of XIV itself maybe you'd have more people on your side, but you keep talking about XIV with your head in XI's clouds.

Weapons had stats on them saying 10 blunt, 80 slash, and 10 pierce. You could switch to the ones that have a higher damage type over the other. This was in FFXIV 1.0, not just XI.

And for the power-house caster comment that is about every single game ever made where you have the choice of being some kind of wizard class, not specifically black mage from FFXI.

Name one situation where Black Mage wasn't an all desired job? That is so redicoulously easy, that I already stated it. Miser, monks do so much damage to it that I couldn't really compare. The most you really can do in the miser fight is sleep slugs. There is your one fight you asked for. Need another?

The chimera is netural damage in terms of resistance, every mob needs to be like that if we are gonna be limited to one spell type. If the spells stay exactly the same, and chimera got lightning resistance our overall damage would plummet badly. Fire spells are not good enough.