#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[ForsakenRoe]

So I guess yes, you will technically not be bored as a healer solo in PF, you will be frustrated instead when you've died to Electron Stream for the 20th time because none of the randoms could be bothered to press Addle, Feint, Shake or Reprisal.

Azure Thunder hits very hard. Rather than gamble that the team is going to Addle/Feint/Reprisal it, I simply employ a solution called 'assume that nobody will use mitigation, and use more of my kit.' It's better to overmit something than undermit it, and there's nothing after the hit that requires the mitigation so there's time for it to come back off CD before it's needed again. Which leads to the core issue: If there's no unexpected 'wow things went wrong' because I'm playing in a way that assumes something will go wrong and I'm taking measures to prevent it proactively, then there's no unexpectedness about it. Either the Addle etc. is used, and we live, or it isn't used, and we still live because I threw in some extra Mit as part of my contingency planning

I mean why the 10-button limitation? Simply because the vast majority of arguments were also about spell duplication that shares the same purpose and brings nothing extra.

Also, it's a challenge because I do strongly believe that classes can have depth, complexity and be unique without 24-30+ buttons to justify the carpel tunnel. I have also played plenty of games that did manage to provide just that. But, they had a lot more systems, beyond the usual hotbar and skills.

Also, your gameplay is extremely linear. The same old 1-2-3 buttons that FF14 used already but now condensed into 1 and not all that different from what we have. Where are the actual complexity and the actual customizability for the class?

" ..Aflatus Solace having 'Additional Effect: If used on someone who is KO" . So you essentially lose a heal+ lily to resurrect somebody. Hopefully, you are in downtime and you don't need to do much healing.

The mini split on responsibilities between classes and not having a very distinct line between pure and shield healers is simply to alleviate the stress during certain mechanics and also as a backup viable plan in case a big mechanic is coming and the shield healer is dead.
Having 0 mits, and 0 shields just because it's a "pure" healer is just overall bad if you put it into perspective. I am not saying you don't have shields cause you do.. AOE which is well.. I doubt it will even make a difference.. Maybe, if you could stack it with the shield healers the same Divine caress does currently but there is nothing specified that it does.

As for the lack of those spells in those expansions, it's ONLY because the fight was specifically engineered, designed and tuned to be completed with the available spells.
Imagine getting a Harrowing Hell (yes the savage counterpart not the normal) alike mechanic at some random level 50 content or even 60.
While the fights seem simplistic to some I can assure you that the fights are thought out and designed down to the spell, and team position in that specific moment.

Sigh, this reminds me of the old days. Wonder how he's doing

1/2: Yes, you could make a job that has 10 buttons and has depth, complexity and uniqueness with 10 buttons. I just did. But one question that could be raised is 'why 10?' For example, a controller XHotbar has 16 buttons easily available across 2 hotbar sets. So why not 16? It's still a far cry lower than the 25+ (or 30+ with role actions) that we have currently. Limiting it to just 10 seems like it's trying to balance 'how can I make it impossible to answer the question in a satisfying manner, without making it too obvious that I'm trying to rig it'

3: The suggestion goes from 'press Dia every 30s (every 12th GCD), press Glare otherwise. Try to put Misery in raidbuffs if you want to optimize' to 'press Dia every 12s (every 5th GCD), press Banish every 15s (every 6th GCD), press Glare otherwise. Additionally, try to put the damage refund from Quake, Flood and Tornado within raidbuffs if you want to optimize. Also, try to put Misery in raidbuffs too if you want to optimize'. Saying that it is 'the same old 123 buttons FF14 used already' is such a misunderstanding that it makes you look like you didn't even read it. The wording used, 'Same old 123 buttons', implies to me that you are under the impression that Stone, Aero and Water are a 123 combo like PCT has, which is incorrect. If you mean that 'Stone/Glare/Quake' is a 123 combo, also no.

4: Swiftcast Raise also currently costs you A: 24% of your MP bar (a resource shared with healing actions), and a resource to allow for instantcasting. I'd argue that Raise being instant by default via being attached to Solace (potentially allowing you to raise 3 people back to back) would potentially allow for more accessible recovery, rather than less. It also would mean Raise is damage neutral, which prevents people from doing the stupid 'leave ally dead on floor because it'd cost damage to raise them and 'healer parse' more important than 'have 8 players alive for the 8man body check coming up''. Of course, spending all your Lilies and not having one available to Raise when it's needed could cause some problems, but the same could be said of MP as a resource, were it not for the fact that SE has made MP be 'effectively not a mechanic in the game anymore'

5: WHM does not have any raidwide mitigations as it stands, outside of Temperance, and the new Divine Caress which requires you use Temperance. So the addition of Afflatus Bastion would mean having more ready access to mitigation options than WHM currently has. The barrier could stack with SGE/SCH, or not, I'm not particularly bothered either way, but if they wanted Pure/Barrier split to work, maybe it'd be better for it to not stack, so that the SCH/SGE is more focused on mitigating/barriers to stop the damage hitting as hard, and the WHM/AST is more focused on healing the damage afterwards. If you think that 'AOE shield' wouldn't make a difference on WHM that's your opinion, the fact it's a Lily spender IMO gives it incredibly strong potential usecases for optimization, gives WHM a way to build Misery by spending Lilies that isn't 'well guess I'll just overheal on purpose', and opens design space for 'barrier checks' (eg the Vulcan Burst knockback from Ifrit can be negated if you have a barrier applied, certain debuffs don't apply if you fully shield the damage, etc.)

6: If we had a Harrowing Hell style mechanic in level 50 content, it'd be completeable with level 50 skillsets. It's a 'chicken or the egg' question, because EG: in Endwalker, we got a move for WHM that is very good for dealing with multi-hit stack attacks. Then, a lot of fights had multi-hit attacks, such as Styx in Zodiark, Styx in P11S, all of Abyssos applying bleeds after raidwide damage goes out, etc. So, did they decide to do that fight design, and give WHM a tool specifically designed to counter it? Or did they decide to give WHM this tool, and then think 'how do we make the tool feel useful and cool with the fight design?'.

Are you implying that we could not resolve Harrowing Hell (in its level 90 form) without Lilybell? Because... we can. And if we can solve it with a Level 60 kit (since it can be cleared with 'press Cure3'), surely we can also solve a scaled version of it at Level 60, because we'd have that same kit because we're Level 60. I don't get what you're trying to prove with this point, we do have 'Harrowing Hell' style attacks in Normal Mode content. They just appear as slightly different telegraphs. Setting aside the funny 'the tank needs to be at the front' wrinkle of HH, it's effectively 'raidwide damage multiple times in quick succession', and so is Tumult from Titan at level 34. The reason HH is scary, is the sheer damage values if you don't mitigate it (eg the content just released and you weren't ready for it). In fact, we have Harrowing Hell in Normal Mode P10, and it still hurts a lot, it just doesn't hit as hard as the Savage version, due to it being Normal Mode (but it's still easily enough to cause a wipe if you're not ready for it/a healer is dead).

So, what's your point, that 'if the Savage version of HH, were A: in level 60 content, and B: the level 60 content were a Normal mode, it'd be too hard to deal with'? Cos.. yeah? A lot of the players in Normal Mode aren't used to doing Savage levels of mechanics, so of course they'd get caught off guard, what does this hypothetical prove? That the 10 button suggestion I posted (which has no MP costs, potencies, etc listed so you're working off of some assumptions) wouldn't be able to clear Harrowing Hell? Because A: I haven't done the same for SCH/SGE, they could be mitigation powerhouses if I did the '10 button challenge' to them too, and B: I think this could clear Harrowing Hell, even the Savage version of it (it would depend on if SCH/SGE was also subject to the same 10 button design limitation, as that'd heavily impact their access to mitigation tools)

I think you were simply unprepared for someone say 'aight bet', to actually make a design that could theoretically function, with just 10 buttons, and now you are floundering to try and find a reason that it couldn't function. Unfortunately, SE's combat design (and current WHM design) means that I don't really need to put any mitigation in the 10 button kit. WHM was the easiest of the four healers to do this for though, given how one-track its design is. Maybe I'll look at making 'SGE but it has only 10 buttons' at some point, since it might be more challenging

edit: Lucrezia apparently cleared FRU with a CNJ in the party. If 'the fights are thought out and designed down to the spell', then how was an Ultimate, the hardest difficulty level available, cleared without multiple of those spells? A CNJ doesn't have Aquaveil or Benison for TBs, any OGCDs (Tetra, Benediction, Asylum, Lilybell), they're missing their only mitigation option of Temperance (and by extension Divine Caress) which you seem hung up on as being critical to a WHM's ability to clear healchecks, the CNJ wouldn't even have Lilies. Their damage output would also be limited to Stone 2 and Aero 2, so the party has to pull extra weight to carry the lower potency output

[Kohashi]

snip

who? The p10s Spooder? Probably still stuck doing Bonds 3, because PF could never..LOL.



I never said you need Bell for HH (savage), but you do need your level 90 Kit to survive it. In the same way, you don't need Tank LB + Bell to help with the Phase 2 Multi-hit of M4s, but I doubt you can do it with a level 50 kit (for example).

Why specifically 10, because it's a challenge and because I wanted to see how you resolve a constraint and how outside of the box you can go.


As for being better than what SE already has in place, no, your build has no innovation and I doubt has any viability in the current content as well. You just moved a couple of things around and called it better while bringing essentially nothing new.

If you were to include let's say.. several modifiers then perhaps.

Let me give you an example of how I would solve the restrain while also tying it a little to a familiar system but giving it a little more purpose

Glare-> Cycles between 3 Colors -> white/Blue- Green- Red. Each color will interact with the other spells and transform their effects.

White/Light blue: heal, regens HOT - Revive
Green: shield, mits ->aoe/single target, some debuffs for the boss, small buffs for the party and yourself
Red: DPS - AOE, single target, DOT/s

In addition, there is a "talent" tree that can further change how spells function and control the stuff they provide allowing you to coordinate with your co-healer if you want or simply enjoy a certain play style.


PS: I don't give a F about how Lucretia cleared the fight because there was also some random party that cleared Golden Bahamut with full tanks too. Those are already outliers and I doubt 99.99% of the player base can achieve that, but kudos to them I guess..


@Tigore

Essentially all healers in every single game are filling the same role. That is to heal and protect their allies, enabling them to continue the fight and mend/mitigate/prevent when mistakes happen.

Also, I have explained already why the number 10 was picked.

It's easy to say you would do a better job until the jig is up and you actually have to come up with something that is at the intersection of fun, rewarding, unique/innovative, it can function at low but also end game that is easy to pick up but also hard to master.

[ForsakenRoe]

I never said you need Bell for HH (savage), but you do need your level 90 Kit to survive it.

Why specifically 10, because it's a challenge and because I wanted to see how you resolve a constraint and how outside of the box you can go.

As for being better than what SE already has in place, no, your build has no innovation and I doubt has any viability in the current content as well. You just moved a couple of things around and called it better while bringing essentially nothing new.

If you were to include let's say.. several modifiers then perhaps.
Let me give you an example of how I would solve the restrain while also tying it a little to a familiar system but giving it a little more purpose
Glare-> Cycles between 3 Colors -> white/Blue- Green- Red. Each color will interact with the other spells and transform their effects.
White/Light blue: heal, regens HOT - Revive
Green: shield, mits ->aoe/single target, some debuffs for the boss, small buffs for the party and yourself
Red: DPS - AOE, single target, DOT/s

In addition, there is a "talent" tree that can further change how spells function and control the stuff they provide allowing you to coordinate with your co-healer if you want or simply enjoy a certain play style.

PS: I don't give a F about how Lucretia cleared the fight because there was also some random party that cleared Golden Bahamut with full tanks too. Those are already outliers and I doubt 99.99% of the player base can achieve that, but kudos to them I guess..


It's easy to say you would do a better job until the jig is up and you actually have to come up with something that is at the intersection of fun, rewarding, unique/innovative, it can function at low but also end game that is easy to pick up but also hard to master.

Well, no, you don't need your 90 kit to survive it, that's my point. You need level 90 stats, sure, but you can (assuming mitigation is handled by everyone correctly, and a Tank LB isn't used) simply spam Cure3 to get through it. Cure3 is learned at level 40. If a Tank LB IS used there, you have even less need for your 'level 90 kit' than you already did

Okay, sure. I'd say I went quite far out of the box, but the judgement of how good a job was done is entirely subjective (as shown by some others saying 'Roe did a pretty good job considering the restriction').

No innovation? Again, seems like a subjective judgement, but I'd argue that it is quite innovative, off of the sheer fact that it fits almost all of the 'required' healing tools/effects into 10 buttons, while still giving more complexity to the damage rotation (to make solo instances more interesting than 'press Glare for 7 minutes').

So... A 123, but other spells change their effect depending on what 123 was last executed? Or is it the other way round, where Glare changes based on the last action used? Either way, you're either describing something akin to VPR's 123 combos for the former, or GNB Continuation for the latter. Or is it MNK's 123 combo stances? Whatever it is meant to be, it's very likely there's a parallel in some other Job's gameplay in the game already. So, maybe not as 'innovative' as first imagined, unless we shift the definition of 'innovative' a little to 'it's not been seen before on the Healer role'. In which case, I'd argue mine was equally innovative because we've not seen an Inner Chaos style empowerment for a Healer's attacks before. And you didn't even bother to actually do the whole thing. You just said 'Glare has 3 forms and it interacts with other actions' and left it at that, what other actions? If the roles were reversed, I'm sure I wouldn't be allowed to just say 'yeh so SCH has Aetherflow as a button, and it gives you stacks to spend on other actions' and get away with such a halfbaked answer

'Talent tree' wasn't even mentioned in the original challenge. All I got given was 'make it work, with only 10 buttons'. You're adding whole systems behind the scenes to prop up the functionality of your pitch, and it's not even a pitch, it's a single action with 'oh and it interacts with the other buttons' hastily scribbled at the bottom of the paper

Lastly, I think you should be caring about teams clearing current content with a Class, or just one healer. Because it disproves what you've insinuated previously (that fights are 'measured and balanced down to the spell'). Evidently, they are not, and the excuse that might work for UCOB (it was heavily outdated, potencies have gone up across the board since then etc) doesn't fly because FRU was released in this patch, the one we're currently still playing. We don't even have the +5 ILVL that the 7.3 dungeon gear will bring, that allows for a little bit more wiggle room. Many people before you have tried the 'it doesn't count because they're the best of the best' line, but the problem is that this game is so heavily scripted in its combat, that you don't necessarily have to be the 'best of the best' to pull it off, you just have to have enough persistence to keep trying until it works (though a certain amount of skill is involved, the persistence is more integral, as your skill would naturally increase as you made the attempts)

You can say all this stuff about 'it should be fun, rewarding, unique/innovative, functions at low end and highend alike, easy to learn hard to master', I'd say doubling down on WHM being the 'use GCDs to heal, get refunds on those GCDs to make them damage neutral, put refunds in 2min window to optimize damage (or don't, player's choice)', that's 'unique/innovative' in itself, because no other Healer does that, and no other non-Healer Job needs to do that. It'd at least give WHM an identity, which is something it's struggled with for many years now. But the example that you gave us, which presumably should meet the criteria you listed above, was 'Glare but it comes in 3 flavours', then you claimed it'd interact with 'other spells and transform their effects' (while wording it in a way that makes it ambiguous to me if 'their effects' refers to 'the effects of the spells', or 'the effects of the Glare'), and left it at that. Oh, and said 'also there's a talent tree' and gave no examples of what these talents might do when a player chooses them, beyond 'it also changes what the spells provide/how the spells function'. Sure, maybe I wasn't 'cooking' with the idea I came up with, in your opinion, but that's up to each person to decide for themselves. I think I did an alright job at it, considering the restriction. But I'd argue that not only did you not 'cook' with your example, you didn't even turn the oven on