#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Absurdity]

I think saying that going into PF will solve healers being boring is a bad argument. If you're new and inexperienced? Sure, PF can be engaging and hard, but if you're experienced, it's still incredibly boring.

In one of my early week M4S kills in PF, we had 10 deaths in the fight and I still casted 169 Broils. Wow, so engaging.

It also needs the additional restriction of "go into PF solo as a healer" to even function in the first place.

We were only half a static this tier so technically we were in PF every week for every single boss, but we were two tanks and two healers which meant we already had the usually most inconsistent part covered, all we needed the 4 random DPS to do was deal damage and maybe press some mitigation on accident.

But this brings up another glaring issue with the "go into PF to not be bored as a healer" argument.
You are entirely reliant on your randoms knowing that they have party mitigation to even be allowed to perform your role because savage has pretty much no healing checks, it has "mitigate this damage enough or restart"-checks which healers can't even cover by themselves.
On one hand this is good, because it requires you to actually coordinate as a party instead of everyone just doing their own thing, but it also means the party's survival is often completely out of your hands.

So I guess yes, you will technically not be bored as a healer solo in PF, you will be frustrated instead when you've died to Electron Stream for the 20th time because none of the randoms could be bothered to press Addle, Feint, Shake or Reprisal.

[Yeol]

Back then:

[Kohashi]

But this brings up another glaring issue with the "go into PF to not be bored as a healer" argument.

the argument was used simply because the vast majority lie about prog points, a great deal have a poor understanding of their class, and are also highly inconsistent as opposed to a static where in theory you should be roughly at least at the same prog point and also be fairly consistent on previous mechanics.

Also re-clearing towards the end of the week adds additional misery if you are interested in being challenged.

snip

I mean why the 10-button limitation? Simply because the vast majority of arguments were also about spell duplication that shares the same purpose and brings nothing extra.

Also, it's a challenge because I do strongly believe that classes can have depth, complexity and be unique without 24-30+ buttons to justify the carpel tunnel. I have also played plenty of games that did manage to provide just that. But, they had a lot more systems, beyond the usual hotbar and skills.

Also, your gameplay is extremely linear. The same old 1-2-3 buttons that FF14 used already but now condensed into 1 and not all that different from what we have. Where are the actual complexity and the actual customizability for the class?

" ..Aflatus Solace having 'Additional Effect: If used on someone who is KO" . So you essentially lose a heal+ lily to resurrect somebody. Hopefully, you are in downtime and you don't need to do much healing.

The mini split on responsibilities between classes and not having a very distinct line between pure and shield healers is simply to alleviate the stress during certain mechanics and also as a backup viable plan in case a big mechanic is coming and the shield healer is dead.
Having 0 mits, and 0 shields just because it's a "pure" healer is just overall bad if you put it into perspective. I am not saying you don't have shields cause you do.. AOE which is well.. I doubt it will even make a difference.. Maybe, if you could stack it with the shield healers the same Divine caress does currently but there is nothing specified that it does.

As for the lack of those spells in those expansions, it's ONLY because the fight was specifically engineered, designed and tuned to be completed with the available spells.
Imagine getting a Harrowing Hell (yes the savage counterpart not the normal) alike mechanic at some random level 50 content or even 60.
While the fights seem simplistic to some I can assure you that the fights are thought out and designed down to the spell, and team position in that specific moment.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Back then:

Okay, I laughed.

[ForsakenRoe]

So I guess yes, you will technically not be bored as a healer solo in PF, you will be frustrated instead when you've died to Electron Stream for the 20th time because none of the randoms could be bothered to press Addle, Feint, Shake or Reprisal.

Azure Thunder hits very hard. Rather than gamble that the team is going to Addle/Feint/Reprisal it, I simply employ a solution called 'assume that nobody will use mitigation, and use more of my kit.' It's better to overmit something than undermit it, and there's nothing after the hit that requires the mitigation so there's time for it to come back off CD before it's needed again. Which leads to the core issue: If there's no unexpected 'wow things went wrong' because I'm playing in a way that assumes something will go wrong and I'm taking measures to prevent it proactively, then there's no unexpectedness about it. Either the Addle etc. is used, and we live, or it isn't used, and we still live because I threw in some extra Mit as part of my contingency planning

I mean why the 10-button limitation? Simply because the vast majority of arguments were also about spell duplication that shares the same purpose and brings nothing extra.

Also, it's a challenge because I do strongly believe that classes can have depth, complexity and be unique without 24-30+ buttons to justify the carpel tunnel. I have also played plenty of games that did manage to provide just that. But, they had a lot more systems, beyond the usual hotbar and skills.

Also, your gameplay is extremely linear. The same old 1-2-3 buttons that FF14 used already but now condensed into 1 and not all that different from what we have. Where are the actual complexity and the actual customizability for the class?

" ..Aflatus Solace having 'Additional Effect: If used on someone who is KO" . So you essentially lose a heal+ lily to resurrect somebody. Hopefully, you are in downtime and you don't need to do much healing.

The mini split on responsibilities between classes and not having a very distinct line between pure and shield healers is simply to alleviate the stress during certain mechanics and also as a backup viable plan in case a big mechanic is coming and the shield healer is dead.
Having 0 mits, and 0 shields just because it's a "pure" healer is just overall bad if you put it into perspective. I am not saying you don't have shields cause you do.. AOE which is well.. I doubt it will even make a difference.. Maybe, if you could stack it with the shield healers the same Divine caress does currently but there is nothing specified that it does.

As for the lack of those spells in those expansions, it's ONLY because the fight was specifically engineered, designed and tuned to be completed with the available spells.
Imagine getting a Harrowing Hell (yes the savage counterpart not the normal) alike mechanic at some random level 50 content or even 60.
While the fights seem simplistic to some I can assure you that the fights are thought out and designed down to the spell, and team position in that specific moment.

Sigh, this reminds me of the old days. Wonder how he's doing

1/2: Yes, you could make a job that has 10 buttons and has depth, complexity and uniqueness with 10 buttons. I just did. But one question that could be raised is 'why 10?' For example, a controller XHotbar has 16 buttons easily available across 2 hotbar sets. So why not 16? It's still a far cry lower than the 25+ (or 30+ with role actions) that we have currently. Limiting it to just 10 seems like it's trying to balance 'how can I make it impossible to answer the question in a satisfying manner, without making it too obvious that I'm trying to rig it'

3: The suggestion goes from 'press Dia every 30s (every 12th GCD), press Glare otherwise. Try to put Misery in raidbuffs if you want to optimize' to 'press Dia every 12s (every 5th GCD), press Banish every 15s (every 6th GCD), press Glare otherwise. Additionally, try to put the damage refund from Quake, Flood and Tornado within raidbuffs if you want to optimize. Also, try to put Misery in raidbuffs too if you want to optimize'. Saying that it is 'the same old 123 buttons FF14 used already' is such a misunderstanding that it makes you look like you didn't even read it. The wording used, 'Same old 123 buttons', implies to me that you are under the impression that Stone, Aero and Water are a 123 combo like PCT has, which is incorrect. If you mean that 'Stone/Glare/Quake' is a 123 combo, also no.

4: Swiftcast Raise also currently costs you A: 24% of your MP bar (a resource shared with healing actions), and a resource to allow for instantcasting. I'd argue that Raise being instant by default via being attached to Solace (potentially allowing you to raise 3 people back to back) would potentially allow for more accessible recovery, rather than less. It also would mean Raise is damage neutral, which prevents people from doing the stupid 'leave ally dead on floor because it'd cost damage to raise them and 'healer parse' more important than 'have 8 players alive for the 8man body check coming up''. Of course, spending all your Lilies and not having one available to Raise when it's needed could cause some problems, but the same could be said of MP as a resource, were it not for the fact that SE has made MP be 'effectively not a mechanic in the game anymore'

5: WHM does not have any raidwide mitigations as it stands, outside of Temperance, and the new Divine Caress which requires you use Temperance. So the addition of Afflatus Bastion would mean having more ready access to mitigation options than WHM currently has. The barrier could stack with SGE/SCH, or not, I'm not particularly bothered either way, but if they wanted Pure/Barrier split to work, maybe it'd be better for it to not stack, so that the SCH/SGE is more focused on mitigating/barriers to stop the damage hitting as hard, and the WHM/AST is more focused on healing the damage afterwards. If you think that 'AOE shield' wouldn't make a difference on WHM that's your opinion, the fact it's a Lily spender IMO gives it incredibly strong potential usecases for optimization, gives WHM a way to build Misery by spending Lilies that isn't 'well guess I'll just overheal on purpose', and opens design space for 'barrier checks' (eg the Vulcan Burst knockback from Ifrit can be negated if you have a barrier applied, certain debuffs don't apply if you fully shield the damage, etc.)

6: If we had a Harrowing Hell style mechanic in level 50 content, it'd be completeable with level 50 skillsets. It's a 'chicken or the egg' question, because EG: in Endwalker, we got a move for WHM that is very good for dealing with multi-hit stack attacks. Then, a lot of fights had multi-hit attacks, such as Styx in Zodiark, Styx in P11S, all of Abyssos applying bleeds after raidwide damage goes out, etc. So, did they decide to do that fight design, and give WHM a tool specifically designed to counter it? Or did they decide to give WHM this tool, and then think 'how do we make the tool feel useful and cool with the fight design?'.

Are you implying that we could not resolve Harrowing Hell (in its level 90 form) without Lilybell? Because... we can. And if we can solve it with a Level 60 kit (since it can be cleared with 'press Cure3'), surely we can also solve a scaled version of it at Level 60, because we'd have that same kit because we're Level 60. I don't get what you're trying to prove with this point, we do have 'Harrowing Hell' style attacks in Normal Mode content. They just appear as slightly different telegraphs. Setting aside the funny 'the tank needs to be at the front' wrinkle of HH, it's effectively 'raidwide damage multiple times in quick succession', and so is Tumult from Titan at level 34. The reason HH is scary, is the sheer damage values if you don't mitigate it (eg the content just released and you weren't ready for it). In fact, we have Harrowing Hell in Normal Mode P10, and it still hurts a lot, it just doesn't hit as hard as the Savage version, due to it being Normal Mode (but it's still easily enough to cause a wipe if you're not ready for it/a healer is dead).

So, what's your point, that 'if the Savage version of HH, were A: in level 60 content, and B: the level 60 content were a Normal mode, it'd be too hard to deal with'? Cos.. yeah? A lot of the players in Normal Mode aren't used to doing Savage levels of mechanics, so of course they'd get caught off guard, what does this hypothetical prove? That the 10 button suggestion I posted (which has no MP costs, potencies, etc listed so you're working off of some assumptions) wouldn't be able to clear Harrowing Hell? Because A: I haven't done the same for SCH/SGE, they could be mitigation powerhouses if I did the '10 button challenge' to them too, and B: I think this could clear Harrowing Hell, even the Savage version of it (it would depend on if SCH/SGE was also subject to the same 10 button design limitation, as that'd heavily impact their access to mitigation tools)

I think you were simply unprepared for someone say 'aight bet', to actually make a design that could theoretically function, with just 10 buttons, and now you are floundering to try and find a reason that it couldn't function. Unfortunately, SE's combat design (and current WHM design) means that I don't really need to put any mitigation in the 10 button kit. WHM was the easiest of the four healers to do this for though, given how one-track its design is. Maybe I'll look at making 'SGE but it has only 10 buttons' at some point, since it might be more challenging

edit: Lucrezia apparently cleared FRU with a CNJ in the party. If 'the fights are thought out and designed down to the spell', then how was an Ultimate, the hardest difficulty level available, cleared without multiple of those spells? A CNJ doesn't have Aquaveil or Benison for TBs, any OGCDs (Tetra, Benediction, Asylum, Lilybell), they're missing their only mitigation option of Temperance (and by extension Divine Caress) which you seem hung up on as being critical to a WHM's ability to clear healchecks, the CNJ wouldn't even have Lilies. Their damage output would also be limited to Stone 2 and Aero 2, so the party has to pull extra weight to carry the lower potency output

[Maltothoris]

This is probably the best place to put, but we got a conjurer/ sch clear of fru. https://x.com/Rukaharu_kamo/status/1880508492253131001

[TheDustyOne]

This is probably the best place to put, but we got a conjurer/ sch clear of fru. https://x.com/Rukaharu_kamo/status/1880508492253131001

Well I'll be; cleared with the 9 button healer. 15 if we wanna count the role actions.

In fairness, SCH was likely doing most of the healing, but even still, how can the game be asking for two healers in the hardest content offered when you can effectively drop one (or both) healers? The game has overkitted the amount of heals we actually need to complete any given fight.

[Tigore]

@Kohashi

You seem way too focused on shooting down ideas rather than discussing what could make them work. As said before, was there a reason the toolkit had to be limited to the number 10 or are you willing to barter it up to 16 or 20? If Roe didn't hit the mark you were thinking of, were there other spell ideas you had for your top 10 you believed to be better? Also note that 24 - 30+ abilities does not always equal carpal tunnel syndrome. The actions per minute (APM) is more what really determines that from the high oGCD usage. The VPR has that higher oGCD usage as an example while also having a little less buttons on the bar.

We also have to remember that SCH, SGE and AST are also there, so we need to make sure their 10 - 20 buttons aren't 100% the same. Some other ideas to consider for countering mechs other than shields could be raised max HP, damage reduction and damage delay by converting some of the burst damage into a DoT or healing absorb (Roe's Aetherblight idea incidentally). The raised max HP can be paired with increasing the healing received so the target is not just a mana sponge. The damage delay mech could also be paired with a way to purify the DoT or healing absorb so it completes the cycle of reducing the damage taken. Warcraft showed from Brewmaster Monk tanks that purifying the DoT for damage delay can potentially be OP if you allow too much of the burst damage to be converted to that DoT. My character there survived 18 stacks of an Impale mech from a dinosaur boss when 3 was supposed to drop you like a fly beyond that. This method will need careful tuning.

[Kohashi]

snip

who? The p10s Spooder? Probably still stuck doing Bonds 3, because PF could never..LOL.



I never said you need Bell for HH (savage), but you do need your level 90 Kit to survive it. In the same way, you don't need Tank LB + Bell to help with the Phase 2 Multi-hit of M4s, but I doubt you can do it with a level 50 kit (for example).

Why specifically 10, because it's a challenge and because I wanted to see how you resolve a constraint and how outside of the box you can go.


As for being better than what SE already has in place, no, your build has no innovation and I doubt has any viability in the current content as well. You just moved a couple of things around and called it better while bringing essentially nothing new.

If you were to include let's say.. several modifiers then perhaps.

Let me give you an example of how I would solve the restrain while also tying it a little to a familiar system but giving it a little more purpose

Glare-> Cycles between 3 Colors -> white/Blue- Green- Red. Each color will interact with the other spells and transform their effects.

White/Light blue: heal, regens HOT - Revive
Green: shield, mits ->aoe/single target, some debuffs for the boss, small buffs for the party and yourself
Red: DPS - AOE, single target, DOT/s

In addition, there is a "talent" tree that can further change how spells function and control the stuff they provide allowing you to coordinate with your co-healer if you want or simply enjoy a certain play style.


PS: I don't give a F about how Lucretia cleared the fight because there was also some random party that cleared Golden Bahamut with full tanks too. Those are already outliers and I doubt 99.99% of the player base can achieve that, but kudos to them I guess..


@Tigore

Essentially all healers in every single game are filling the same role. That is to heal and protect their allies, enabling them to continue the fight and mend/mitigate/prevent when mistakes happen.

Also, I have explained already why the number 10 was picked.

It's easy to say you would do a better job until the jig is up and you actually have to come up with something that is at the intersection of fun, rewarding, unique/innovative, it can function at low but also end game that is easy to pick up but also hard to master.

[Maltothoris]

Well Se does care otherwise why put in the duplicate class restrictions on limit break? It's the same reqson why they made changes to ramuh ex back in the day when they saw it could be completed without tanks or them making aure you couldn't solo tank the final coils. They have a vision and they don't want anyone to screw with it.