#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[ForsakenRoe]

In between lack of mits (party is averse to using any faint, addle..) to a healer that is actually afk or not properly responding to mechanics, happening and/or upcoming, how do you carry and how do you keep your sanity?


Okay. now tell how the healing goes in any ultimate/savage where you have to heal multiple raid wides like the AOE at the end of EE2, into Ion Cannon, into intermission into p2 while you don't effectively have a mana regen spell, swiftcast, or anything to speed up casting (I am not seeing one). Also, where is the raise? No more raising? What do you do? Also, how do you respond when Tank or a person with worse gear is in the party? Will your aoe shield be enough or is that not your job at all now?

For the first question, I've been a healer for several years. I don't think there's much sanity left to keep at this point.

For the second, MP economy could be changed to suit the lack of Lucid Dreaming. We're already making massive sweeping changes by reducing the button count to less than a third of its current (I have at least 30 buttons on WHM hotbars I'm sure), so why not throw 'we are also reworking MP income/spending ratios to make this hypothetical kit work' in there, too? Blessing of the Elementals could restore MP on use, Stone/Aero/Water and the higher levels of those could have their MP costs be... not 400 per cast. I don't think Swiftcast is necessary for anything except Raise. I did indeed miss Raise off the list, but you could solve that with something like Afflatus Solace having 'Additional Effect: If used on someone who is KO, they are returned to life with 10% HP and 10% MP'. Then it's instantcast by default. I added the AOE shield because WHM used to have Stoneskin in the past and I think we could have it back. For the most part, I'd expect that you'd rely more on healing with Rapture rather than protecting with Bastion, and a SCH/SGE would handle barriers more (as is implied by the Pure/Barrier split).

All of the listed damage sources (stack mark after EE2, Ion Cannon, Intermission) could be handled by Medica 3, Rapture and Blessing of the Elementals. Whether we can handle them without losing damage, using the 10button kit, was not the question asked. You might be thinking that we'd be screwed without Temperance or Liturgy of the Bell, but we survived 3 expansions and 2 Ultimates without Temperance, and 4 expansions/3 Ultimates without the overheal plant, and we did it by hitting things like Medica1 and Cure3 several times to get through the healing check. If the initial heal of Medica3 was made equal to Medica1 (Which is as simple as adding one tick of the HOT to the on-cast potency, then shortening the HOT by 3s), we can use it multiple times in a row if necessary, or we can use one for the HOT at the start, then use Rapture/Blessing as the HOT ticks

If button count is truly such a massive issue, we can do without some of the buttons clogging up the bars, like Repose, Rescue, Lucid (rework MP costs and/or regen rate to compensate), Swiftcast (just attach the instantcast effect to Thin Air), Aetherial Shift (I don't think WHM needed an En Avant move), and we also don't need Cure 1 and Medica 1 when we could just have them upgrade into their sequels (Cure3 can stay though, it's iconic)

[AmiableApkallu]

Why even are we trying to cram a job's entire kit into 10 buttons? Button count has no special relation to "complexity." Button count is mainly concerned with "bloat."

My PvP SCH has 12 buttons total, and I believe there's a broad sense that PvP kits, in general, contain pared-down kits that attempt to get at the true essence of a job.

My PvE PCT has 24 buttons total, and that's a job that's generally regarded as well-designed (if overpowered in some specific encounters...).

[Aravell]

I think saying that going into PF will solve healers being boring is a bad argument. If you're new and inexperienced? Sure, PF can be engaging and hard, but if you're experienced, it's still incredibly boring.

In one of my early week M4S kills in PF, we had 10 deaths in the fight and I still casted 169 Broils. Wow, so engaging.

[Lorika]

(I have at least 30 buttons on WHM hotbars I'm sure),

25 without the role action, 31 with and 33 if you separe GlareIV from POM and Divine Caress from Temperance

[Supersnow845]

Why even are we trying to cram a job's entire kit into 10 buttons? Button count has no special relation to "complexity." Button count is mainly concerned with "bloat."

My PvP SCH has 12 buttons total, and I believe there's a broad sense that PvP kits, in general, contain pared-down kits that attempt to get at the true essence of a job.

My PvE PCT has 24 buttons total, and that's a job that's generally regarded as well-designed (if overpowered in some specific encounters...).

Because PCT is a unique case of a class that strongly benefits from shared buttons that wouldn’t work on say………SCH

PCT has relatively few buttons but a similar design doesn’t benefit the healers anywhere near as much

[Absurdity]

I think saying that going into PF will solve healers being boring is a bad argument. If you're new and inexperienced? Sure, PF can be engaging and hard, but if you're experienced, it's still incredibly boring.

In one of my early week M4S kills in PF, we had 10 deaths in the fight and I still casted 169 Broils. Wow, so engaging.

It also needs the additional restriction of "go into PF solo as a healer" to even function in the first place.

We were only half a static this tier so technically we were in PF every week for every single boss, but we were two tanks and two healers which meant we already had the usually most inconsistent part covered, all we needed the 4 random DPS to do was deal damage and maybe press some mitigation on accident.

But this brings up another glaring issue with the "go into PF to not be bored as a healer" argument.
You are entirely reliant on your randoms knowing that they have party mitigation to even be allowed to perform your role because savage has pretty much no healing checks, it has "mitigate this damage enough or restart"-checks which healers can't even cover by themselves.
On one hand this is good, because it requires you to actually coordinate as a party instead of everyone just doing their own thing, but it also means the party's survival is often completely out of your hands.

So I guess yes, you will technically not be bored as a healer solo in PF, you will be frustrated instead when you've died to Electron Stream for the 20th time because none of the randoms could be bothered to press Addle, Feint, Shake or Reprisal.

[Yeol]

Back then:

[Kohashi]

But this brings up another glaring issue with the "go into PF to not be bored as a healer" argument.

the argument was used simply because the vast majority lie about prog points, a great deal have a poor understanding of their class, and are also highly inconsistent as opposed to a static where in theory you should be roughly at least at the same prog point and also be fairly consistent on previous mechanics.

Also re-clearing towards the end of the week adds additional misery if you are interested in being challenged.

snip

I mean why the 10-button limitation? Simply because the vast majority of arguments were also about spell duplication that shares the same purpose and brings nothing extra.

Also, it's a challenge because I do strongly believe that classes can have depth, complexity and be unique without 24-30+ buttons to justify the carpel tunnel. I have also played plenty of games that did manage to provide just that. But, they had a lot more systems, beyond the usual hotbar and skills.

Also, your gameplay is extremely linear. The same old 1-2-3 buttons that FF14 used already but now condensed into 1 and not all that different from what we have. Where are the actual complexity and the actual customizability for the class?

" ..Aflatus Solace having 'Additional Effect: If used on someone who is KO" . So you essentially lose a heal+ lily to resurrect somebody. Hopefully, you are in downtime and you don't need to do much healing.

The mini split on responsibilities between classes and not having a very distinct line between pure and shield healers is simply to alleviate the stress during certain mechanics and also as a backup viable plan in case a big mechanic is coming and the shield healer is dead.
Having 0 mits, and 0 shields just because it's a "pure" healer is just overall bad if you put it into perspective. I am not saying you don't have shields cause you do.. AOE which is well.. I doubt it will even make a difference.. Maybe, if you could stack it with the shield healers the same Divine caress does currently but there is nothing specified that it does.

As for the lack of those spells in those expansions, it's ONLY because the fight was specifically engineered, designed and tuned to be completed with the available spells.
Imagine getting a Harrowing Hell (yes the savage counterpart not the normal) alike mechanic at some random level 50 content or even 60.
While the fights seem simplistic to some I can assure you that the fights are thought out and designed down to the spell, and team position in that specific moment.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Back then:

Okay, I laughed.

[ForsakenRoe]

So I guess yes, you will technically not be bored as a healer solo in PF, you will be frustrated instead when you've died to Electron Stream for the 20th time because none of the randoms could be bothered to press Addle, Feint, Shake or Reprisal.

Azure Thunder hits very hard. Rather than gamble that the team is going to Addle/Feint/Reprisal it, I simply employ a solution called 'assume that nobody will use mitigation, and use more of my kit.' It's better to overmit something than undermit it, and there's nothing after the hit that requires the mitigation so there's time for it to come back off CD before it's needed again. Which leads to the core issue: If there's no unexpected 'wow things went wrong' because I'm playing in a way that assumes something will go wrong and I'm taking measures to prevent it proactively, then there's no unexpectedness about it. Either the Addle etc. is used, and we live, or it isn't used, and we still live because I threw in some extra Mit as part of my contingency planning

I mean why the 10-button limitation? Simply because the vast majority of arguments were also about spell duplication that shares the same purpose and brings nothing extra.

Also, it's a challenge because I do strongly believe that classes can have depth, complexity and be unique without 24-30+ buttons to justify the carpel tunnel. I have also played plenty of games that did manage to provide just that. But, they had a lot more systems, beyond the usual hotbar and skills.

Also, your gameplay is extremely linear. The same old 1-2-3 buttons that FF14 used already but now condensed into 1 and not all that different from what we have. Where are the actual complexity and the actual customizability for the class?

" ..Aflatus Solace having 'Additional Effect: If used on someone who is KO" . So you essentially lose a heal+ lily to resurrect somebody. Hopefully, you are in downtime and you don't need to do much healing.

The mini split on responsibilities between classes and not having a very distinct line between pure and shield healers is simply to alleviate the stress during certain mechanics and also as a backup viable plan in case a big mechanic is coming and the shield healer is dead.
Having 0 mits, and 0 shields just because it's a "pure" healer is just overall bad if you put it into perspective. I am not saying you don't have shields cause you do.. AOE which is well.. I doubt it will even make a difference.. Maybe, if you could stack it with the shield healers the same Divine caress does currently but there is nothing specified that it does.

As for the lack of those spells in those expansions, it's ONLY because the fight was specifically engineered, designed and tuned to be completed with the available spells.
Imagine getting a Harrowing Hell (yes the savage counterpart not the normal) alike mechanic at some random level 50 content or even 60.
While the fights seem simplistic to some I can assure you that the fights are thought out and designed down to the spell, and team position in that specific moment.

Sigh, this reminds me of the old days. Wonder how he's doing

1/2: Yes, you could make a job that has 10 buttons and has depth, complexity and uniqueness with 10 buttons. I just did. But one question that could be raised is 'why 10?' For example, a controller XHotbar has 16 buttons easily available across 2 hotbar sets. So why not 16? It's still a far cry lower than the 25+ (or 30+ with role actions) that we have currently. Limiting it to just 10 seems like it's trying to balance 'how can I make it impossible to answer the question in a satisfying manner, without making it too obvious that I'm trying to rig it'

3: The suggestion goes from 'press Dia every 30s (every 12th GCD), press Glare otherwise. Try to put Misery in raidbuffs if you want to optimize' to 'press Dia every 12s (every 5th GCD), press Banish every 15s (every 6th GCD), press Glare otherwise. Additionally, try to put the damage refund from Quake, Flood and Tornado within raidbuffs if you want to optimize. Also, try to put Misery in raidbuffs too if you want to optimize'. Saying that it is 'the same old 123 buttons FF14 used already' is such a misunderstanding that it makes you look like you didn't even read it. The wording used, 'Same old 123 buttons', implies to me that you are under the impression that Stone, Aero and Water are a 123 combo like PCT has, which is incorrect. If you mean that 'Stone/Glare/Quake' is a 123 combo, also no.

4: Swiftcast Raise also currently costs you A: 24% of your MP bar (a resource shared with healing actions), and a resource to allow for instantcasting. I'd argue that Raise being instant by default via being attached to Solace (potentially allowing you to raise 3 people back to back) would potentially allow for more accessible recovery, rather than less. It also would mean Raise is damage neutral, which prevents people from doing the stupid 'leave ally dead on floor because it'd cost damage to raise them and 'healer parse' more important than 'have 8 players alive for the 8man body check coming up''. Of course, spending all your Lilies and not having one available to Raise when it's needed could cause some problems, but the same could be said of MP as a resource, were it not for the fact that SE has made MP be 'effectively not a mechanic in the game anymore'

5: WHM does not have any raidwide mitigations as it stands, outside of Temperance, and the new Divine Caress which requires you use Temperance. So the addition of Afflatus Bastion would mean having more ready access to mitigation options than WHM currently has. The barrier could stack with SGE/SCH, or not, I'm not particularly bothered either way, but if they wanted Pure/Barrier split to work, maybe it'd be better for it to not stack, so that the SCH/SGE is more focused on mitigating/barriers to stop the damage hitting as hard, and the WHM/AST is more focused on healing the damage afterwards. If you think that 'AOE shield' wouldn't make a difference on WHM that's your opinion, the fact it's a Lily spender IMO gives it incredibly strong potential usecases for optimization, gives WHM a way to build Misery by spending Lilies that isn't 'well guess I'll just overheal on purpose', and opens design space for 'barrier checks' (eg the Vulcan Burst knockback from Ifrit can be negated if you have a barrier applied, certain debuffs don't apply if you fully shield the damage, etc.)

6: If we had a Harrowing Hell style mechanic in level 50 content, it'd be completeable with level 50 skillsets. It's a 'chicken or the egg' question, because EG: in Endwalker, we got a move for WHM that is very good for dealing with multi-hit stack attacks. Then, a lot of fights had multi-hit attacks, such as Styx in Zodiark, Styx in P11S, all of Abyssos applying bleeds after raidwide damage goes out, etc. So, did they decide to do that fight design, and give WHM a tool specifically designed to counter it? Or did they decide to give WHM this tool, and then think 'how do we make the tool feel useful and cool with the fight design?'.

Are you implying that we could not resolve Harrowing Hell (in its level 90 form) without Lilybell? Because... we can. And if we can solve it with a Level 60 kit (since it can be cleared with 'press Cure3'), surely we can also solve a scaled version of it at Level 60, because we'd have that same kit because we're Level 60. I don't get what you're trying to prove with this point, we do have 'Harrowing Hell' style attacks in Normal Mode content. They just appear as slightly different telegraphs. Setting aside the funny 'the tank needs to be at the front' wrinkle of HH, it's effectively 'raidwide damage multiple times in quick succession', and so is Tumult from Titan at level 34. The reason HH is scary, is the sheer damage values if you don't mitigate it (eg the content just released and you weren't ready for it). In fact, we have Harrowing Hell in Normal Mode P10, and it still hurts a lot, it just doesn't hit as hard as the Savage version, due to it being Normal Mode (but it's still easily enough to cause a wipe if you're not ready for it/a healer is dead).

So, what's your point, that 'if the Savage version of HH, were A: in level 60 content, and B: the level 60 content were a Normal mode, it'd be too hard to deal with'? Cos.. yeah? A lot of the players in Normal Mode aren't used to doing Savage levels of mechanics, so of course they'd get caught off guard, what does this hypothetical prove? That the 10 button suggestion I posted (which has no MP costs, potencies, etc listed so you're working off of some assumptions) wouldn't be able to clear Harrowing Hell? Because A: I haven't done the same for SCH/SGE, they could be mitigation powerhouses if I did the '10 button challenge' to them too, and B: I think this could clear Harrowing Hell, even the Savage version of it (it would depend on if SCH/SGE was also subject to the same 10 button design limitation, as that'd heavily impact their access to mitigation tools)

I think you were simply unprepared for someone say 'aight bet', to actually make a design that could theoretically function, with just 10 buttons, and now you are floundering to try and find a reason that it couldn't function. Unfortunately, SE's combat design (and current WHM design) means that I don't really need to put any mitigation in the 10 button kit. WHM was the easiest of the four healers to do this for though, given how one-track its design is. Maybe I'll look at making 'SGE but it has only 10 buttons' at some point, since it might be more challenging

edit: Lucrezia apparently cleared FRU with a CNJ in the party. If 'the fights are thought out and designed down to the spell', then how was an Ultimate, the hardest difficulty level available, cleared without multiple of those spells? A CNJ doesn't have Aquaveil or Benison for TBs, any OGCDs (Tetra, Benediction, Asylum, Lilybell), they're missing their only mitigation option of Temperance (and by extension Divine Caress) which you seem hung up on as being critical to a WHM's ability to clear healchecks, the CNJ wouldn't even have Lilies. Their damage output would also be limited to Stone 2 and Aero 2, so the party has to pull extra weight to carry the lower potency output