#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Tigore]

Roe was brainstorming an extreme example and said such an example would probably just barely help increase the healing we need to do by itself. We might also need to advocate the removal of some of our own oGCD heals and cooldowns in addition to the extreme nerfs on the tanks and DPS if we only go down the path to only nerfing. As such, increasing the encounter damage looked like a better idea to focus on first so the nerfs do not have to be severe.

As for the 25s cooldown Provoke, the only reason I can think of would be because the Warcraft tanks once started ping ponging a boss on a big arena when the boss was entering their damage plus phase. They understood that it was hell on melee DPS, so they started to burn through their defensive cooldowns first. Once both tanks did so, they started playing piggy-in-the-middle and favored ranged DPS more to reduce the effect this would have on the DPS. Blizzard had to add in a taunt immunity after maybe 5 quick consecutive swaps over time to prevent the boss looking foolish running back and forth. It was either that or make the boss fiendishly fast with the running.

Other than that, I would like to see some actual tank swaps for our encounters with 2 tanks. The off tank is 90% of the time just another DPS since they are just there in case something screws up to kill the main tank. We do have tank busters hitting both of them, but it generally just happens on the "final trial boss". Even our 12th normal final boss from our last expansion 8 player raid didn't really do anything specifically important for the off tank. I was able to use things like Nascent Flash on the main tank, but that was it and it likely compounded the issue even more with healers almost not needing to heal the tanks. Shirk and turning off tank stance was used quite often since I was able to out pace the threat of other tanks half the time. I elected to use the healing utilities like Nascent Flash more so when someone was getting raised.

[Shurrikhan]

Where did i say remove?
I said nerf, it's completly different.

I think their point was that to have a meaningful effect on typical parties' GCD healing usage, you would essentially need to nerf the likes of Shake it Off, Clemency, Divine Veil, Passage of Arms, Curing Waltz, Reply if Earth, etc., across that comp to the point that their holders would rather not have them bloating their bars at all -- i.e. effectively removing them.

Which then means the nerf/gutting/removal would be likely be an incomplete solution anyways (as even with the nerfs we'd still spend the vast majority of our time spamming Malefic) despite stripping a form of engagement from said jobs and reducing the number of ways non-healers can differentiate their support/utility from one another.

So we'd end up degrading gameplay elsewhere just to have less of an effect than we'd have by just... increasing effective sustain requirements with the least possible side effect (e.g., through a greater number of damage events rather than the damage of each event).

[Lorika]

Then again, i said nerf, not nerfing to the ground
Since Shake it off was took an exemple, just revert back to the way it was at the start : without the group heal.
Remove the level 94 boost of Second wind, make some CD longer, remove some potency, remove some stack.

Make the skills still usefull, but less powerfull.

I mean, right now, eveyrthing is done for transforming FFXIV into GWXIV

[Supersnow845]

Then again, i said nerf, not nerfing to the ground
Since Shake it off was took an exemple, just revert back to the way it was at the start : without the group heal.
Remove the level 94 boost of Second wind, make some CD longer, remove some potency, remove some stack.

Make the skills still usefull, but less powerfull.

I mean, right now, eveyrthing is done for transforming FFXIV into GWXIV

Nerfing the regen off shake it off would do nothing to change the nature of the skill for example

That’s the problem here, damage is already so low that tanks and DPS having ANYTHING is going to immediately infringe on the healers

The only thing that would be “enough” to fix the healers with the current damage output is to delete everything off the non healers. Even with no regen (or even upfront heal) on SIO that’s one less GCD heal or mitigation the healer has to apply and with how little damage comes out that’s just less actions for the healer

[Shurrikhan]

Then again, i said nerf, not nerfing to the ground

Then you'd add maybe... 1 AoE heal per average minute, if that -- so, maybe up to 4% fewer casts spent just on Broil? Which is negligible.

1. Since Shake it off was took an exemple, just revert back to the way it was at the start : without the group heal.

The majority of its strength is still the initial mit.

2. Remove the level 94 boost of Second wind

Given Maim and Mend, this amounts to less than a Cure per fight.

3. make some CD longer

Then you run the risk of making it not an available tool at all against many sequences of attacks, which effectively removes its engagement. These matters quantize.

4. remove some potency

See #2.

5. remove some stack

I'm guessing you mean charges, as none have stacks. See #3.

You've noted that others have focused too much on messing with outlying opportunities instead of dealing with the simple, core issues, but you're doing the same thing here yourself. There's not enough sustain among the tools you aim to nerf, even if you were to remove them outright, to --in forcing that healing from healers instead-- reduce healers' portion of uptime spent on spammy or on-CD attacks to below some two-thirds in a typical fight.

So you will have have further homogenized and simplified gameplay among many non-healers... only to make a clearly insufficient difference, if any, among healers.

[Azurarok]

In terms of not using our healing GCDs I think the truckload of oGCD healing we've got is more the problem than anything else right now. I've tried healing Chaotic a few times, and some of the strats, the mixed item levels, and the amount of mistakes (towers) that can happen make it much easier to run out of oGCDs, and I've consistently had to resort to casted heals so my GCD usage has been quite a bit more mixed there. I'm sure I'm also overhealing quite a bit but I also don't trust a 24-player pug group enough to not do that.

It takes that much chaos to make the role engaging. Maybe if we learned another attack or two instead of yet another heal every 20 levels we'd have a better balance of skills.

[ForsakenRoe]

Then again, i said nerf, not nerfing to the ground
Since Shake it off was took an exemple, just revert back to the way it was at the start : without the group heal.
Remove the level 94 boost of Second wind, make some CD longer, remove some potency, remove some stack.

Make the skills still usefull, but less powerfull.

As others have pointed out, the point I was trying to illustrate is, if we can outright remove these non-healer actions like SIO, Second Wind etc, and it has very little/no tangible improvement to our healer gameplay, then nerfing the actions (less removal of power compared to removing the actions) would have even less effect on our healer gameplay. It's not just that Shake It Off now heals for a total of 800p that is causing our healer gameplay to stagnate, it's the addition of things like 'here's a free 10% boost to healing to anyone in Asylum' or 'here's 500p of regen if you stand in Soil/Kera', or 'here's 2000p of healing that you can use versus multi-stacks/DOTs (Lilybell)'. That last one is especially egregious, as what used to be 'ok it's time to use Cure3 a couple of times', and thereby involved the slightest amount of MP management (can I afford Cure3 here or should I use Medica as it costs less), now it's 'use funny plant'

It's all well and good saying 'nerfing/removing Tank/DPS utility actions would make us have to press healing GCDs more' and while it might be true in the literal definition of 'is this statement true or false', a solution that decreases my Broils per minute from 22 to 21 (or even, let's say 18) is not really a 'solution' IMO, as even at 18 per minute that's 75% of my GCDs being used on the same action per minute

As for your example of SIO, removing the healing and making it just the barrier effect again, the reason they added the healing (specifically the HOT part, few people seemed to complain about the initial healing when that was added) was because SIO sucked, pretty badly, against Bleed-raidwides in Abyssos. Removing it entirely wouldn't solve anything for healers, and would just make WAR 'not as good' vs Bleed-Raidwides or Multistacks, leading to outrage from WAR players for no gain to anyone else. I agree that it could be changed in its effect though, so as to retain its current power, but change how it interacts with our HP bar. I'd make it like Panhaima, so rather than the barrier, 300p of healing and 5 ticks of 100p regen, I'd have it as the initial barrier, then 300p of healing once that barrier is destroyed, and 5 stacks of 100p barrier Panhaima style after the initial barrier breaks. This makes the burst heal contingent on timing, makes it thematic as the heal triggers when you 'shake off the damage' you took that broke the barrier, and the Panhaima style barrier protects from DOTs/multistacks without encroaching on Healer responsibilities (because if a stack is not consumed by damage and expires, it doesn't heal the HP bar of the person it was on, unlike the current regen)

Same for the Equilibrium HOT, 5 stacks of a self-Haima for 300p per layer, instead of 1500p of Regen

[AmiableApkallu]

Maybe if we learned another attack or two instead of yet another heal every 20 levels we'd have a better balance of skills.

Recently, I've been thinking (to myself) about this whole "healer DPS kit" thing in two ways:

1. Animations matter. PCT's filler pseudo-combo, PLD's Atonement (as of Dawntrail) and Blade pseudo-combos, these are all mechanically 1-1-1, but the animations vary and thus distract from the mechanical simplicity. For healers, I think there's a relatively easy win to be had here, even if it doesn't address any core issues.

2. It's about "dimensions" or "building blocks" or "interactions", not literal attacks. PCT shows us how we can have an interesting DPS kit without relying on a large number of buttons. Pseudo-combos certainly help with that, but I think it's also helpful to look at the leveling experience:

• Lv.30 First motif.
• Lv.50 Second motif.
• Lv.60 Subtractive palette.

Each of those adds what I might call a new "dimension" or "building block" that breaks up PCT's 1-1-1 filler. The healers don't need to copy PCT's literal mechanics, but their leveling experience should similarly introduce a new dimension or two to the DPS kits.

The closest we currently have on healers might be WHM's Afflatus Misery (Lv.74) and AST's cards (Lv.30), both which I feel are underdeveloped as DPS mechanics. Dawntrail gave the healers new damage actions, but not a new dimension.

[Azurarok]

1. Animations matter.

I've voiced this quite a few times but I'm not a fan of PCT's 1-button combo system since Water in Blue functions to add gauge, and I have a harder time tracking where I am in the combo with it. I do want earth and wind spells back on WHM, but I prefer their purpose to not be just for flavor on a spam button also.

2. It's about "dimensions" or "building blocks" or "interactions", not literal attacks.

It doesn't necessarily need to be a new button, it can be traits or adjusting what we currently have and when we learn them too. Like with WHM I wish we'd have Afflatus Misery at least within the same expac as when we unlock lilies, learned Glare~GlareIV as a proc skill from using casted heals (with 100% proc rate when used with Thin Air) instead of it replacing Stone, gotten a trait that grants stacks of Glare with PoM, then a trait to shorten PoM's recast to 60s.

[Tigore]

@ Lorika

I understand that you want the simplest solution possible so the healers are fixed quickly. Our problems are more deep rooted than the WAR taking our role though.

The relative damage thrown out to the parties obeying dance mechs still feels like it's barely over what occured for ARR and Heavensward. We have more dance mechs, yes, but the damage they deal to the party is "not reliable" so to speak. The goal is to take zero damage from them still. We probably have double to triple the healing output we did compared to ARR as well.

We can still keep some dance mechs. I understand they are there to hold everyone accountable for paying attention the best they can... With some forgiveness for first timers and lag. The Devs may need to take notes from the trial perma DoT, the multi hit tank buster in our current Savage and the level 95 final dungeon boss. More damage needs to be unavoidable if they want us to use the higher healing power given to us.

Since Max HP is currently capping how we can do this, they may need other methods to bypass this like multi hits, raising Max HP and using special mechs like Roe's Aetherblight. Maybe even use debuff enfeeblements when we are in a fight that shrinks us as an example. A certain boss in the World of Darkness Alliance Raid comes to mind here >.>