#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Rithy255]

The problem is simply this game puts out so little damage that ANY healing on the tanks is too much healing

GNB can sustain itself in a dungeon with 2 charges of aurora and HOC. If it can do that then either Aurora, HOC or both is problematic as square absolutely refuses to up the amount of damage content puts out.

No matter how absolutely cracked WAR is the weaker sustain tanks still being able to keep themselves totally healthy on their own CD’s means the limit to functionally acceptable tank healing is very very low

Do you really think healer would be anymore fun then if encounters were kept the same but we just removed "free sustain" on tanks, I really do not see how throwing a extra ogcd heal or two to replace a tanks sustain would honestly make healer anymore fun for you.

You maybe complacent with fights having very low damage profiles and tanks having absurd Mitigation value, but I'm not I want fights to actually make me use my cooldowns to the point where aurora and HOC isn't just enough to sustain throughout a entire fight.

Honestly I find this absurd we're blaming tanks like gunbreaker for having sustain tools as if this is the root issue with healer (and tank) design is obviously the encounter design with some exceptions such as warrior having way too much and gnb/pld can use some toned down in some areas without just "yeah remove it lol"

It feels like it must be this lose/lose situation where you either keep sustain on tanks and healers stay unfun, or you remove it on healers and healers become fun while tanks become less fun to play, In reality both Healers and Tanks should be improved it should be a win/win scenario, we should be wanting for fights to actually make use of our kits and even trim some of the bloat on both of our kits to actually make these "free cooldowns, mits, heals ect." becomes resources that we should be using wisely.

If you think aurora is enough to replace your entire role... maybe just maybe theirs a issue in encounter design... I wouldn't know I'm not a expert but I think just maybe that wouldn't actually be a issue with tanks and more of a issue with how fights are designed.

[Azurarok]

Also GNB was added on the patch that started the current problems with the roles so Aurora isn't really off the hook either.

Like it doesn't have to be in the form of stances either. Trading off the role's primary task with dps is something healers technically still do, even without Cleric Stance.
I'm not sure about enmity management but as far as self-sustain/mitigation goes, if tanks also took that route back in SB or ShB it could've left room for a healer to focus on healing while a tank could focus on dps and vice-versa, and maybe the roles would've been in a healthier state.

[Rithy255]

Also GNB was added on the patch that started the current problems with the roles so Aurora isn't really off the hook either.

Like it doesn't have to be in the form of stances either. Trading off the role's primary task with dps is something healers technically still do, even without Cleric Stance.
I'm not sure about enmity management but as far as self-sustain/mitigation goes, if tanks also took that route back in SB or ShB it could've left room for a healer to focus on healing while a tank could focus on dps and vice-versa, and maybe the roles would've been in a healthier state.

Yeah because a one minute cooldown that is a weak regen is Really unhealthy for the game lol.

as a tank i now demand you have zero mitigations on healer or DPS, How dare Healers have stuff like aqua veil, how dare samurais have third eye thats my job and they do it for free, healers should lose out on damage if they want to use mitigation!

No, again one or two heal cooldowns SHOULD NOT REPLACE YOUR ENTIRE ROLE. Again I'll have to say this for the 100th time if aurora can replace a healer then what even is the point of having healers... to throw in one ogcd single target heal on the tank???????

Free healing cooldowns is fine it's the amount, how is this controversial to even say, is it some weird healer pride thing where they get mad another job can help sustain someone a little bit?

[Azurarok]

Have I said it should be zero?? I'm saying it shouldn't be free. You're correct, healers should lose out on damage if they want to use mitigation and some healing. SCH's Sacred Soil does this. WHM used to have Protect and Stone Skin as casted spells. It was the norm for WHM and SCH even in ShB where you usually had to sacrifice damage to gain weave space and mobility. Tanks should also be in this same boat

[Rithy255]

Have I said it should be zero?? I'm saying it shouldn't be free. You're correct, healers should lose out on damage if they want to use mitigation and some healing. SCH's Sacred Soil does this. WHM used to have Protect and Stone Skin as casted spells. It was the norm for WHM and SCH even in ShB where you usually had to sacrifice damage to gain weave space and mobility. Tanks should also be in this same boat

I was mostly just comparing how it sounds when people say tanks shouldn't have any healing when saying healers should lose out on damage to mitigate, though if we want to give tanks the treatment of they can't use any healing unless they sacrifice damage I think it's only fair.

I disagree that you can't have some free cooldowns, the point is having a limited amount so that you can't just use your resources without thinking, even in dungeons i want healers and tanks to be rewarded for using their cooldowns in synergy which in return would save healers from having to gcd heal as much (which they don't at all in current content). I don't see any issue and I mean this sincerely. I think the cost to having "free cooldowns" is that you have to actually use them up at the correct time for good trade-off value.

I think (and I hope) is what we want is the same thing at the core of this issue I want tanks and healers to actually feel important and work together, I just in a different light don't think it's fully a issue with free cooldowns, it's more the fact that these cooldowns are "free" because we have so much on healers/tanks theirs never a big risk of running out or messing up with incorrect use.

as a side note I did prefer the longer cast time on healers back in SHB, Whm was still massively UP in comparison but i feel like that mobility and planning around it is one thing more lost on healers due to how much free movement options they have now and less cast times obviously.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Some levels of "free" tank healing skills are fine no one complained about aurora in shadowbringers despite it not really having any trade offs, it's more the amount on tanks that is too much rather then tanks having any non "free" healing skills, there doesn't need to be a "cost" for tank healing skills, there just needs to be less

Aurora when it was first introduced wasn't really all that strong... 200 potency regen with a 18s duration (6 ticks, 1200 total healing potency) and 60s CD. It's been buffed twice since, to get it's second charge to make it usable more often and an extra 100 potency to take it a 1800 total... And also EW added Corundum, and in DT every tank got some form of heal attached to their Job specific mit skill.
Just take aurora back to what it was on ShB launch, maybe even increase it's CD, and that skill is fine.

One of the steps to fix stuff is definitely just start taking healing away from tanks.
WAR can keep their self-heals, since that's more or less part of the jobs identity but take away their ability to heal the party.
PLD can keep Clemency, but don't half it's cost and keep it at 4k MP cost. Remove the heal from Divine Veil. Nerf the regen on Sheltron/Intervention. And just get rid of Divine Magic Mastery II.
DRK was fine before DT.
GNB, nerf Aurora back to ShB and cut down Corundum's heal's potency.

And in general, just get nerf the heals from all the tanks level 92 version of their Job specific mit.

[CKNovel]

Nerfing tanks won't change a thing, Aurora is insanely weak and only amount for 7~8% of GNB's total HPs, plus due to its single target HoT nature and the lack of damage over time, it'll overheal half the time. They buffed it because it was pointless.
If you want to reduce Aurora's healing, you need to compensate with something otherwise you might as well delete it.

The real "problem" is Clemency that is a straight up White Magic GCD, which makes sense since PLD is supposed to be a knight using white magic.
Ironically if you remove Clemency a FRU Healerless run isn't possible but a Tankless run still is. Yet no tank is screaming for nerf about other jobs' mitigation.

[Rithy255]

Aurora when it was first introduced wasn't really all that strong... 200 potency regen with a 18s duration (6 ticks, 1200 total healing potency) and 60s CD. It's been buffed twice since, to get it's second charge to make it usable more often and an extra 100 potency to take it a 1800 total... And also EW added Corundum, and in DT every tank got some form of heal attached to their Job specific mit skill.
Just take aurora back to what it was on ShB launch, maybe even increase it's CD, and that skill is fine.

One of the steps to fix stuff is definitely just start taking healing away from tanks.
WAR can keep their self-heals, since that's more or less part of the jobs identity but take away their ability to heal the party.
PLD can keep Clemency, but don't half it's cost and keep it at 4k MP cost. Remove the heal from Divine Veil. Nerf the regen on Sheltron/Intervention. And just get rid of Divine Magic Mastery II.
DRK was fine before DT.
GNB, nerf Aurora back to ShB and cut down Corundum's heal's potency.

And in general, just get nerf the heals from all the tanks level 92 version of their Job specific mit.

even old Aurora was "free sustain" which is my point entirely that some amount of free sustain has always been fine, not to say it hasn't been buffed hence why i didn't even mention some buffs its gotten.

I feel like it's odd that you would suggest to basically remove all sustain from paladin and nerf clemency then say eh just make sure warrior can't heal others but keep it's strong self healing, idk seems a bit bias like "who cares about PLD as long as we keep warriors self healing identity". I personally think healing from magic attacks needs to go, maybe veil? but if we were to nerf tanks self healing warrior should be the first one looked at imo.

I also don't think like DRK really even is a issue with sustain... like having one excog tied to a 120's ability and a 500 potency heal on a attack doesn't strike me as OP.

[CaptainLagbeard]

WAR did use to have less mit than the other tanks, but it always had self-heals. They can make it go back to that.

[Rithy255]

WAR did use to have less mit than the other tanks, but it always had self-heals. They can make it go back to that.

Then warrior would be pretty much useless in ultimates or ultimates wouldn't require tanks to use mitigation properly.

Theirs a reason why mitigation values have to stay somewhat similar.