Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[Ramiee]

You could put it on 180s CD healers would remain boring in dungeon.
The rest of the WAR kit is perfectly enough to maintain the WAR alive, do you want to nerf them as well and make WAR a joke in other content than dungeons?

You are hyper fixated on other roles when I am talking about Tanks not healers. Bloodbath is balanced around being 90 seconds I don't know why WAR can't have its weaponskill self heals attached to a 60-90 second CD and replace the short CD healing effect with something else. You already said that this only effects dungeons not raids so why are you now saying the healing weaponskill ability is now what makes it viable in raids?
I just think they should cap bloodwhettings aoe healing in dungeons is that really going to make it unplayable, I really don't get your train of thought.

[FunnyCero]

Bloodbath is a tool that lasts 20 seconds and is applied to OGCDs as well for a role that does not constantly eat hits to the face (or hopefully are not).

On the actual post, warrior is the most fun tank because it can stand out. I sympathize with healers not having an enjoyable time but most I've known have expressed this from the balancing philosophy of content not needing intensive healing and having DPS aspects that made their jobs interesting in downtime gradually trimmed to non-existence. But I don't know why people are citing dungeons as a place of balance for the game in the first place. It's the lowest tier of content with little interesting enemies which is meant to be breezed through for convenience of people running them (typically for roulettes or glam).

[Terhix]

This is a post from another thread, but I think it's the perfect illustration as to why current iteration of Bloodwhetting is bad for the game:

(...)

YOu can use 2-3 TBN per trash pull, which equals to 75% health , compare that to Bloodwhetting which not only gives you 10% mitigation and heals you for ~300% health on each use.

We can't even have a reasonable discussion about other tanks, because Bloodwhetting exists and it's setting such an absurd standard that people will non-ironically compare abilities that are perfectly fine to Bloodwhetting on trash packs in dungeons specifically as a means to make a point.

No tank needs to heal multiples of its entire HP bar every 25s in any context, ever.

[CKNovel]

You are hyper fixated on other roles when I am talking about Tanks not healers. Bloodbath is balanced around being 90 seconds I don't know why WAR can't have its weaponskill self heals attached to a 60-90 second CD and replace the short CD healing effect with something else. You already said that this only effects dungeons not raids so why are you now saying the healing weaponskill ability is now what makes it viable in raids?
I just think they should cap bloodwhettings aoe healing in dungeons is that really going to make it unplayable, I really don't get your train of thought.

Dungeons are supposed to be 4 players, 3 different roles and we're talking about the holy trinity. I'm not hyper fixated on other role, I'm simply considering all of them.
It would be hypocritical to claim the trinity is dead but only caring about healers, correct?

I've shared with you why capping Bloodwhetting to a single target would barely make any differences.
Bloodbath is a different can of worms, it's a DPS skill and DPS aren't meant to be tanky or heal a lot

You already said that this only effects dungeons not raids so why are you now saying the healing weaponskill ability is now what makes it viable in raids?

This is a strawman.
I've said even if you changed Bloodwhetting, even as far as removing it, WAR other cooldown would still be enough to maintain itself in dungeon.
I then asked you if we should nerf them as well, which would impact the WAR in other content. Not that its healing weaponskill is what makes it viable.

Changing BW to bloodbath equivalent would mean a longer duration and you'd still use it on every packs.

[Terhix]

I've shared with you why capping Bloodwhetting to a single target would barely make any differences.

Indeed multi-target scaling on Bloodwhetting is completely unnecessary and should be removed.

[CKNovel]

Indeed multi-target scaling on Bloodwhetting is completely unnecessary and should be removed.

Okay then, let's nerf it just to save the ego of some healers that only play MSQ.
Screw the maps enjoyer, screw the fate farmer, screw the exploration field enjoyer, screw the casual/new players that aren't familiar with tank cooldown and just want a safe choice for dungeons.

Healer ego is more important after all. Then we'll realize nothing changed and healers will bring their torches to the next job.

[Terhix]

Screw the maps enjoyer, screw the fate farmer, screw the exploration field enjoyer, screw the casual/new players that aren't familiar with tank cooldown and just want a safe choice for dungeons.

All tanks can do all of that content with ease, out of which WAR would still have the highest ogcd HPS even without multitarget scaling on Bloodwhetting. And yes, new players who leveled a warrior all the way to 82 should absolutely learn that pressing just one mitigation button on cooldown is not enough to do W2W pulls.

[aiqa]

I've said even if you changed Bloodwhetting, even as far as removing it, WAR other cooldown would still be enough to maintain itself in dungeon.

This continued "it's pointless to try balance things because there are some other far lesser issues, that wont get fixed by only fixing the worst issue" is not very convincing. The only thing you're doing is showing tanks (WAR) will still be completely fine if their most overtuned abilities are balanced better. Which shows there is no reason to keep bloodwhetting as is, besides god mode fantasies.

[CKNovel]

This continued "it's pointless to try balance things because there are some other far lesser issues, that wont get fixed by only fixing the worst issue" is not very convincing. The only thing you're doing is showing tanks (WAR) will still be completely fine if their most overtuned abilities are balanced better. Which shows there is no reason to keep bloodwhetting as is, besides god mode fantasies.

You're twisting my words and interpreting maliciously.

Slowly down the cars to preserve the damaged road will not repair the road. Instead I've pressed that we need to repair the road so everyone can enjoy their car.
I never said "It's pointless to slow down the car because the road will remained damaged".

I try to put a focus on the real problem but go ahead, twist my words and be malicious. You'll experience a placebo effect until you realize the real problem that you're not pressing half your tools as a healer in dungeon, Bloodwhetting or not. This is why it's not the way.

[Shurrikhan]

I try to put a focus on the real problem but go ahead, twist my words and be malicious. You'll experience a placebo effect until you realize the real problem that you're not pressing half your tools as a healer in dungeon, Bloodwhetting or not. This is why it's not the way.

What is the way, then, and how/why is it immune to any degradation from imbalance among tank jobs (or jobs in general)?

Lets say we amp healing requirements so that, even with a fully-geared Warrior played perfectly, healers have to hit all their oGCDs optimally to keep them up with only pre-shields/HoTs and between-pull heals.

Has that decreased the advantage of Warriors in dungeons, or merely made it all the more significant?

Has it made Bloodwhetting any less a disproportionate portion of Warrior's total mitigation in trash pulls relative to other tanks' short-CD? Has it made Bloodwhetting degrade optimizations elsewhere any less through just how huge merely having auto-crits readied for its window is?

My complaints about Bloodwhetting apply as a Warrior, as well. Its optimizations being solely a matter of auto-crits means that, if I were balanced, I'd no longer be able to hit higher peaks of sustain and/or damage by saving oGCDs for Bloodwhetting or prioritizing just raid buff usage with them, that Damnation has no synergy with my short-CD (via reflected damage) and that it and Equilibrium's synergy with any bonus healing is basically irrelevant compared to just one more auto-crit under Bloodwhetting.

The swap from healing from damage dealt to a flat heal per hit made the skill less interactive and more dull atop making it scale far better than any other AoE in the game (imagine if Orogeny was just Upheaval but per target, with no penalty) and therefore becoming nigh impossible to balance simultaneously for ST and AoE.
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Tl;dr: Yes, of course healers should be revamped; I don't think anyone here is arguing that healers would be fine if only Warrior's healing were reined in to reasonable levels. But gross imbalances in sustain and broken (unable to be balanced across multiple content types) scaling factors --not to mention the gameplay nerfs therefrom-- need to be addressed regardless.