Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[Ramiee]

Trinity has been the debate from the start and the main argument of many. Now we must throw it out of the window? This thread has been created because "the Warrior is stealing the healers job!" and now when I use the trinity as an argument it's not valid?

I don't really care about a trinity arguement I'm arguing about tank balance. You should argue that on the healer strike thread since the people there care more about it.

You said, you believe Warrior will stop being immortal if you nerf bloodwhetting's lifesteal.

Specifically in AoE yes.

You also brought the raids first claiming WAR was very good and it allows healers to not care about the WAR.
To which I answered that no, WAR self healing will remain strong and immortal enough even without Bloodwhetting even if you put the bloodbath effect on a 90s cooldown.

Uh I no, I don't think bloodwhetting removes the healers from play in raids completely. It's self healing is good because for example healing increase percentage abilities can be used to save the strong oGCD heals for optimisation. Bloodwhetting is solid in Raids but I believe PLD has the strongest shirt CD in raid environments. Wether or not the other abilities can keep it immortal I don't really care because I'm just talking about bloodwhetting. The only other ability I will say is op is Holmgang because of it's short CD.

I then asked you, if that nerf isn't enough and WAR is indeed still immortal, are you going to chase the other cooldowns until WAR is "good enough" in dungeons even if it comes at the expense of WAR performance in other content?

That's not a complex.

Again I don't see how capping the aoe in bloodwhetting effects anything outside of aoe scenarios. If you're talking about fates and eureka, well for fates they are overtuned in AoE and for Eureka/Bozja there's a potion that gives you aoe lifesteal akin to Bloodwhetting so it's more balanced since everyone can do it.

[CKNovel]

Tank balance exist in a bigger bubble that is the general job balance. You can not care but you can't ignore this has been the core of the topic.
Because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean you can say "This signs cannot stop me because I cannot read".

Even if you remove the aoe part, it would remain immortal. Go back a few pages to see the healing numbers I've brought from ingame testing.

My point isn't to let healers in that state, it is to help healers being fun in dungeon.
I'm pointing out that nerfing Bloodwhetting is not the way.

[Terhix]

(...)

Even if you remove the aoe part, it would remain immortal. (...)

I'm pointing out that nerfing Bloodwhetting is not the way.

You misspelled "not enough".

[Lyth]

The dev team seems to have a longstanding aversion to job nerfs. The problem is that once a job gains an action that is unbalanced, they're effectively grandfathered into that advantage for years. In the short term, upward balance seemingly makes players happy. But in the long run, you're left with the sense that if you don't like the top job in a given role, it's not worth investing in that role at all.

While a lot of the focus on Bloodwhetting is in dungeon content, it's certainly topical and causing frustration for players both within and outside the role. You wouldn't really lose anything major in exchange for having the self-heal apply only once per weaponskill. You wouldn't even have to change the description. And I think it's a relatively small concession to make in the name of restoring player faith in balance 'fairness'.

In terms of the broader 'design direction', tank mitigation and self-healing needs a more active approach. There are many heals that are just built into the rotations or freely available on demand. These should instead be conscious choices that you make. To do this, you need context-dependent heals, where the damage healed back depends on your current HP or on the amount of damage that you've recently taken. The healing actions themselves should be resource-gated so that you think about where you use them. And the timing should be important - ideally there should be a really narrow window in which you can use mitigation and healing to maximize the impact, similar to how action games use narrow iframe windows as defensive timing checks.

The one thing that I'm curious about is what the knock-on effect of rebalancing WAR would be. If the job wasn't already in a lot of players crosshairs from the lead in to Dawntrail, I strongly suspect GNB would be instead, as the perpetual tank DPS frontrunner and having a very robust defensive kit. I think if you addressed the balance around Shake vs. conditional (magic only) raidwide defensives, it would be a non-contest.

[dspguy]

The only issue I have with WAR is that other tanks feel lesser when I play them.

[ApolloGenX]

Wars are great. Others tanks are weak and need improvement.

Improve the other tanks and ditch healers. Healing in this game is terrible.

[Tunda]

Wars are great. Others tanks are weak and need improvement.

Improve the other tanks and ditch healers. Healing in this game is terrible.

War is braindead other tanks are balanced (not you dark knight)

[Shurrikhan]

Wars are great. Others tanks are weak and need improvement.

Improve the other tanks and ditch healers. Healing in this game is terrible.

And I wonder why that would be?

Surely it wouldn't have anything to do with, atop their pruned DPS kits, they've been left with proportionately less and less of the party's healing to do (let alone engagement there from)?

[Mercury_Grey]

What is the way, then, and how/why is it immune to any degradation from imbalance among tank jobs (or jobs in general)?

Lets say we amp healing requirements so that, even with a fully-geared Warrior played perfectly, healers have to hit all their oGCDs optimally to keep them up with only pre-shields/HoTs and between-pull heals.

Has that decreased the advantage of Warriors in dungeons, or merely made it all the more significant?

Has it made Bloodwhetting any less a disproportionate portion of Warrior's total mitigation in trash pulls relative to other tanks' short-CD? Has it made Bloodwhetting degrade optimizations elsewhere any less through just how huge merely having auto-crits readied for its window is?

My complaints about Bloodwhetting apply as a Warrior, as well. Its optimizations being solely a matter of auto-crits means that, if I were balanced, I'd no longer be able to hit higher peaks of sustain and/or damage by saving oGCDs for Bloodwhetting or prioritizing just raid buff usage with them, that Damnation has no synergy with my short-CD (via reflected damage) and that it and Equilibrium's synergy with any bonus healing is basically irrelevant compared to just one more auto-crit under Bloodwhetting.

The swap from healing from damage dealt to a flat heal per hit made the skill less interactive and more dull atop making it scale far better than any other AoE in the game (imagine if Orogeny was just Upheaval but per target, with no penalty) and therefore becoming nigh impossible to balance simultaneously for ST and AoE.
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Tl;dr: Yes, of course healers should be revamped; I don't think anyone here is arguing that healers would be fine if only Warrior's healing were reined in to reasonable levels. But gross imbalances in sustain and broken (unable to be balanced across multiple content types) scaling factors --not to mention the gameplay nerfs therefrom-- need to be addressed regardless.

I agree with your statement, I play warrior a lot for groups to balance so we dont have 2 of the same job like GNB and DRK, etc. Most don't realize for warrior to ahve the big Shield from shake it off it has to use bloodwhetting, damnation, and thrill of battle. Hell even great nebula now has that thrill fo battle but only the bonus HP part.

[ApolloGenX]

Not sure why you would nerf one of the few fun classes instead of buff the boring ones.

Healing is just broken. It's because mechanics make individuals responsible for not taking damage instead of healers responsible for healing it.

If people are responsible then ditch healing and give self healing....easier to balance damage in fights.