Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[Ayan_Calvesse]

I have a hot opinion.. Invulnerability skills are a clear sign for bad design jobs

Agreed.

Invulns are "You don't wanna bother tanking this correctly" as a ability that for some reason has a diff timer for every class.; I cannot justify invulns because the idea that a capstone skill would vary so wildly. I could see a tank invuln as a tank LB if anything.

[CKNovel]

In savage WAR out paces other tank in healing by nearly double. This isn't just equilibrium, bloodwhetting is strong self heal under raid buffs and if you do it with fell cleave spam. I think war is op in savage compared to other tanks but only because of holmgang having the lowest cd.

Also dungeons are a part of the game and should feel fun for all parties, if healers aren't having fun that's a problem that should be fix. Just cap bloodwhetting's aoe to like 3-4 mobs it would still be strong but if you want a full heal you'd need to use decimate at least twice.

In savage, mitigation > healing.
Bloodwhetting is only 10% of WAR's healing but Shake it off is 30% of WAR's healing, Damnation is around 15%. Due to their regen nature, they overheal a lot.
Out of 50% of Warrior's self healing, 50% is overhealing.

Paladin has a lot of overhealing but way less than WAR, making its effective healing more valuable.

[aiqa]

In savage, mitigation > healing.
Bloodwhetting is only 10% of WAR's healing but Shake it off is 30% of WAR's healing, Damnation is around 15%. Due to their regen nature, they overheal a lot.
Out of 50% of Warrior's self healing, 50% is overhealing.

Paladin has a lot of overhealing but way less than WAR, making its effective healing more valuable.

FFlogs healing statistics do not include overhealing. So if WAR is overhealing a lot now, it will pull ahead even more if incoming damage is ever increased.

[Ramiee]

In savage, mitigation > healing.
Bloodwhetting is only 10% of WAR's healing but Shake it off is 30% of WAR's healing, Damnation is around 15%. Due to their regen nature, they overheal a lot.
Out of 50% of Warrior's self healing, 50% is overhealing.

Paladin has a lot of overhealing but way less than WAR, making its effective healing more valuable.

Its already got fine mitigation the healing is the cherry on top, bloodwhetting has 10% damage resistance and a barrier as well as strong healing. People really undervalue the heal in raid content, yes its not as op as in dungeons but its still really strong even in raids thats less stress on the healers to do more healing so they can deal more damage and finish the raid faster. Healing is core to WAR damnation has made this pretty clear at this point the only thing I want changed with war is bloodwhetting to be capped in aoe and holmgang or the other invuns having more similar cds. I don't want all the self healing gone from WAR i just want it to be more reasonable for healers in other content.

[Alice_Rivers]

If a WHM's holy stun never had any fall-off and they could just stun the mob pack forever I wouldn't feel very needed either.

Can I have this? Can I? Pretty please?

[PyurBlue]

There's a whole lot of opinion having in this thread about why Bloodwhetting is overpowered in dungeons when the real test is clearly how they do in savage/ex content.

Oh, wait, this just in. Every tank is good and fine and they're all viable. Stop complaining about not having to heal a warrior in a dungeon and enjoy the glory of being able to do more damage.

WAR doesn't enable more damage in dungeons since the healing is all OGCD. All it does it bore the healer to death.

Fun is more important than setting an arbitrary DPS cap anyway.

[Rithy255]

WAR doesn't enable more damage in dungeons since the healing is all OGCD. All it does it bore the healer to death.

Fun is more important than setting an arbitrary DPS cap anyway.

Pretty much agree, Most healers will certainly not need to GCD heal a tank like Paladin or Gunbreaker (or even a good dark knight), Warrior on the other hand you dont even need any ogcd's so healers lose out on resource management

I find it funny that people will defend warrior by saying "it doesn't effect savage so its ok!" but the thing is most people are Casual players, a lot of people are going to be put off healing by Warrior, leveling in dungeons is miserable if you have a warrior because you only need to press Glare/broil you don't need to really pay attention or learn anything about healing, which is contrasted by content down the line being more punishing when you do actually need to heal.

I'm not a advocate against all non healer healing, I think it's fine to have some forms of self/target even group healing in some rare instances, But I think theirs a cap where certain jobs can be and to me warrior is a prime example of a job who breaks that cap by a mile just due to how blood whetting scales with each enemy, I want a healthy game for all content and part of that is removing blood whetting per enemy, making it so you only heal once regardless of the amount of enemies, fun thing is this doesn't effect raids either.

[CKNovel]

Its already got fine mitigation the healing is the cherry on top, bloodwhetting has 10% damage resistance and a barrier as well as strong healing. People really undervalue the heal in raid content, yes its not as op as in dungeons but its still really strong even in raids thats less stress on the healers to do more healing so they can deal more damage and finish the raid faster. Healing is core to WAR damnation has made this pretty clear at this point the only thing I want changed with war is bloodwhetting to be capped in aoe and holmgang or the other invuns having more similar cds. I don't want all the self healing gone from WAR i just want it to be more reasonable for healers in other content.

The healing is good, I'm not saying it's bad. But it's clearly overrevaluated, it's good and comfort, not "really strong". It just shines in very rare spot where a boss auto attacks a lot which happens extremely rarely. Bosses rarely do sustained damage on tanks.
You can do the same thing you describe with so many other tools, Paladin passive sustain, other tank single CDs, Sage's Soteria...

The problem is that you think this is exclusive to the WAR while it's not, just because it can top itself against a worthless trash pack.
Even if you capped Bloodwhetting nothing would change. Dungeon damage is too low and Bloodwhetting single target heal will still amount to 13~20k per hit, that's still far enough to regen 40% of their max HP. Combine that with the rest of the kit and Warrior is still unkillable.

Nerfing Warrior is slowing down cars to preserve a damaged road instead of repairing that road. Dungeon aren't suited for the healers kit. You can never press Philosophia, Physis, Panhaima, Pneuma or Holos and you're still going to wipe the floor with that dungeon, even when healing a DRK.

[Ramiee]

The problem is that you think this is exclusive to the WAR while it's not, just because it can top itself against a worthless trash pack.
Even if you capped Bloodwhetting nothing would change. Dungeon damage is too low and Bloodwhetting single target heal will still amount to 13~20k per hit, that's still far enough to regen 40% of their max HP. Combine that with the rest of the kit and Warrior is still unkillable.

Nope I think PLD self healing on the sword combo is stupid and that aurora shouldn't have 2 stacks.
I never said this was a WAR exclusive problem, it's just that WAR is the most egregious.
Dungeon damage is something everyone argues about and can never find common ground on so I just don't talk about it. I simply think capping aoe bloodwhetting is the easiest way to make it less egregious, really this problem won't go away until the tank role is reworked to be more balanced around working with healers.
The trinity is beyond fucked and literally every role in this game needs reworks because there is zero synergy in anything that isn't an ultimate raid.

[Derio]

WAR is the most played Tank. It is the most purchased job boosted on mogstation and has the most self sustain for OGCD on a tank. The job is super balanced. Majority of players do not want a WAR rework.