Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[CKNovel]

So far as I can tell, reducing the amount of targets WAR can heal off per attack goes a long way to balancing it in dungeons without changing high end balance in any meaningful way, then you increase sustained NPC damage in lower end content to be balanced with existing mits and healing, further, to maintain that balance, I would suggest reducing the ilvl range on duties to prevent excessive power from stats breaking that balance. If, after that, adjustments need to be made to PLD, to GNB, to DRK, so be it, there's nothing stopping them from re-tuning savage and ultimate for some potency adjustments that balance the foundational and intended educational experience to actually educate and build foundations.

Is it a pain point in the short term? Yes, it'll frustrate everyone, but in the long term it's far better for the health of the game and the continued retention of players. No MMO can live purely on player turnover.

Good news, we already have content where Bloodwhetting used to be weaker and damages taken were bigger. Shadowbringers dungeons started to hit harder.
This resulted in tanks being encouraged to use Arm's Length. So this resulted in an increase of standard and player skill but still on the wrong plan - Single target healing and tank mitigation.

What I believe dungeons needs to focus are the party wide healing and mitigations. Healer primary role is to heal the party, yet the amount of damage DPS and healers takes is minimal!
That's my point, even if you nerf Bloodwhetting and all tanks self healing, the "trinity" is meaningless as long as DPS and healers takes minimal damage.

That tutorial doesn't work as a tutorial.

[Kalaam]

Honestly more party wide damage from dungeon pulls could be neat, have some be interruptable by tanks and ranged, stuff like that. Trashpull to introduce future dungeon boss mechanics are nice

[aiqa]

Dungeons and normal are the easy, story modes. They're designed to be steamrolled by anyone.
Asking to balance jobs for the easy mode is counter productive as you'll impact the job performance on all content.

Savage and ultimates are exactly the modes where balance matters the most. If you nerf Warrior because you find them too strong in the easy more, they'll be weaker because some people are complaining about dungeons.
Imagine if you nerf something because it's too strong in the tutorial, it doesn't makes sense, correct?

And let's be real, if Warrior had bloodwhetting removed, people would then move on to whine about other tools. Even if tank were nerfed, healers wouldn't make use of their full kit in dungeons.
Dungeons are the problem, they don't deal enough damage and all damages are mostly focused on the tank. Fix them and you'll see less complaints about WAR.

WAR has by far the highest sutain of all tanks in any content, dungeons, raids, trials, deep dungeons, etc. The most suggested change to reign in WAR selfhealing wouldn't even affect bossfights much (remove target scaling on bloodwhetting). And lowering its selfhealing to the level of other tanks wouldn't destroy the job.

There is no way to fix dungeons to fix tank balance, WAR in its current form will always be a problems. WAR has better sustain in the only part of dungeons that can be optional (large mob pulls) than a DRK and WHM combined. If dungeons are a challenge to WAR+healer, no other tank would be able to survive. And it's also completely unreasonable a WAR gets levels of ogcd healing on large mob pulls, multiples of what a healer jobs can maintain.

[Ramiee]

Honestly more party wide damage from dungeon pulls could be neat, have some be interruptable by tanks and ranged, stuff like that. Trashpull to introduce future dungeon boss mechanics are nice

It's kind of happened in the two expert dungeons. Both have had healing checks that damage the entire party, but this has been only one pack in both dungeons. Really trash pulls need to be more engaging whether it includes environmental obstacles or aoe damage, if dungeons are going to forever be straight lines then make the trash packs far more engaging.

[CKNovel]

WAR has by far the highest sutain of all tanks in any content, dungeons, raids, trials, deep dungeons, etc. The most suggested change to reign in WAR selfhealing wouldn't even affect bossfights much (remove target scaling on bloodwhetting). And lowering its selfhealing to the level of other tanks wouldn't destroy the job.

There is no way to fix dungeons to fix tank balance, WAR in its current form will always be a problems. WAR has better sustain in the only part of dungeons that can be optional (large mob pulls) than a DRK and WHM combined. If dungeons are a challenge to WAR+healer, no other tank would be able to survive. And it's also completely unreasonable a WAR gets levels of ogcd healing on large mob pulls, multiples of what a healer jobs can maintain.

Except in raids, deep dungeons, trials, WAR sustain doesn't comes from Bloodwhetting.
WAR has better sustain but it comes at the hefty price of less mitigation. Warrior only has 3 personal while other tanks have 4. Bloodwhetting also reduces by 10%*2 instead of the classic 15%*2.
Finally, WAR healing on the chart isn't representative of the actual strength, WAR overheals a lot, mostly from Shake it off.

If more damage are inflicted on party members, you hit Healers primary role that tanks can't cover.

[Alice_Rivers]

that won't help, even on single target a war can get up to near full if they know what they are doing. the more targets just make it easier.
if War is going to be the self healing tank, then it's going to be like this no matter what.

but also ask why. Most healers I encounter can't handle drk in dungeons. i'm god awful as a healer and I can still comfortably heal a drk in a dungeon. so we just go war to get it over with. Also war provides newer and less skilled tanks a safer way to do dungeons.

Honestly if a healer can't keep a DRK alive then one or both players is doing it wrong. DRK is easy to keep up, even as the weakest tank, from a healer point of view I consider it to be the best balanced in the mit/heal department. On the subject of WAR being a heal tank: I don't have an inherent problem with a tank that mitigates through healing, it's actually a cool concept that I replicated in a different MMO using the healer class, the problem is that WARs heals are not balanced as mitigation in normal content, it just completely replaces the healer role. This is a clear failure of the balance team.

I've said it before, I'll reiterate here: I'm not out to destroy WAR, I'm not seeking to break savage, I simply want to curb WAR's excesses in normal content in a way that has minimal impact on everything else and bring the content up to meet the current power level.

Good news, we already have content where Bloodwhetting used to be weaker and damages taken were bigger. Shadowbringers dungeons started to hit harder.
This resulted in tanks being encouraged to use Arm's Length. So this resulted in an increase of standard and player skill but still on the wrong plan - Single target healing and tank mitigation.

What I believe dungeons needs to focus are the party wide healing and mitigations. Healer primary role is to heal the party, yet the amount of damage DPS and healers takes is minimal!
That's my point, even if you nerf Bloodwhetting and all tanks self healing, the "trinity" is meaningless as long as DPS and healers takes minimal damage.

That tutorial doesn't work as a tutorial.

I can support increasing party damage, I was saying to a friend the other day that NPCs have too low sustained damage output in both single and multi-target manners, obviously in boss fights and trials one can simply throw out more raidwides but how do we go about it for pulls? I know everyone hates enemies that ignore aggro to target at random - I think with good reason, it defeats the whole point of the tank.

[CKNovel]

I can support increasing party damage, I was saying to a friend the other day that NPCs have too low sustained damage output in both single and multi-target manners, obviously in boss fights and trials one can simply throw out more raidwides but how do we go about it for pulls? I know everyone hates enemies that ignore aggro to target at random - I think with good reason, it defeats the whole point of the tank.

One of the dungeons has exactly two ennemies dealing party wide damage. Thought they're super weak, we could have ennemies doing massive raidiwide, share on the healer...
We have that in criterion, adds that targets party member other than the tank.

Apply the same thing to normal dungeons, you could even have a DPS that get a targeted AoE that inflicts a curable debuff/physical resist down that DPS must avoid to apply on tanks.
There's even the cubes in one of the EX dungeons that deals aoe damage.

I believe this is a great path that would make healers more important in dungeons.

[Alice_Rivers]

Ah yes, those two. At low ilvl and unexpected those two were quite painful. I suppose a fix would be percentage based damage and I could absolutely go for dps mechanics, dps jobs are a bit underserved in dungeons, something more than just doing one's rotation and dodging AoEs would make the jobs more interesting.

[aiqa]

Except in raids, deep dungeons, trials, WAR sustain doesn't comes from Bloodwhetting.
WAR has better sustain but it comes at the hefty price of less mitigation. Warrior only has 3 personal while other tanks have 4. Bloodwhetting also reduces by 10%*2 instead of the classic 15%*2.
Finally, WAR healing on the chart isn't representative of the actual strength, WAR overheals a lot, mostly from Shake it off.

If more damage are inflicted on party members, you hit Healers primary role that tanks can't cover.

FFlogs healing includes mitigation, and doesn't include overhealing. So you only need 1 metric, and that metric is pretty obvious https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...nks&metric=hps
But you made a good point, Shake it Off is far to strong too.

[Terhix]

There is nothing to say here that wasn't already said, so I'll just sign under everyone else who suggested to cap BW/Raw Intuition healing to 1 heal per GCD. It's such an obvious fix that it's honestly quite baffling it wasn't implemented through the entirety of Endwalker.