Pictomancer is insanely overtuned and needs to be fixed before savage drops.

[rewd]

I'm not that worried about PCT damage for savage, it's just BLM (and really the casters in general) that need to be buffed.

I am worried about PCT in ultimates. The job already completely nukes trash pulls in dungeons with the way you get muses back, but that doesn't matter because that's just dungeons. However being able to cast muses during downtime in ultimates has the potential to create a huge balance problem, you can already see this in the limited data we have on legacy ultimate clears.

It's possible to design around this (have the downtime prevent any casting, use cutscenes/down for the count, have long uptime phases) but I don't like how the job gets so much stronger with downtime relative to all the other jobs.

1) Legacy Ultimates don't matter because they are not balanced anymore. For numbers worth discussing, we have to wait for 7.X Ultimates

2) It's healthy for the game to have jobs that excel in different scenarios, because that means jobs are different and unique instead of being more of the same. PCT shouldn't be neutered to be the same as the rest but should instead be used as a model to have unique jobs again. Jobs that are stronger with downtime, or if you are forced to disengage, or if there are multiple enemies and so on. This requires the community to do a "culture" shift and stop freaking out because of irrelevant dfferences. As this thread shows this is a big demand, but you can't have unique and fun jobs that are also perfectly balanced. Note: for a lot of people "perfectly balanced" means that all melees deal similar damage, what happens with RDM/SMN and phys ranged doesn't matter.

3) Ultimates are more about mechanical execution and consistency, rather than DPS checks. A stronger DPS won't cause a "huge balance problem", not as much as you think. Balance exists to ensure that every job is capable of clearing every fight and balance is good if I can also clear without a perfect execution on my part (compared to other jobs).

[Realfoxy]

1) Legacy Ultimates don't matter because they are not balanced anymore. For numbers worth discussing, we have to wait for 7.X Ultimates

2) It's healthy for the game to have jobs that excel in different scenarios, because that means jobs are different and unique instead of being more of the same. PCT shouldn't be neutered to be the same as the rest but should instead be used as a model to have unique jobs again. Jobs that are stronger with downtime, or if you are forced to disengage, or if there are multiple enemies and so on. This requires the community to do a "culture" shift and stop freaking out because of irrelevant dfferences. As this thread shows this is a big demand, but you can't have unique and fun jobs that are also perfectly balanced. Note: for a lot of people "perfectly balanced" means that all melees deal similar damage, what happens with RDM/SMN and phys ranged doesn't matter.

3) Ultimates are more about mechanical execution and consistency, rather than DPS checks. A stronger DPS won't cause a "huge balance problem", not as much as you think. Balance exists to ensure that every job is capable of clearing every fight and balance is good if I can also clear without a perfect execution on my part (compared to other jobs).

1. Legacy ultimate balance should actually matter, SE just doesn't give a shit about it for some reason. I'd rather they keep it in mind while balancing than not.

2. I agree that it's good to have some job differentiation, I just don't think that having such a clear damage difference is good differentiation.

3. Really don't get this sentiment when DPS checks were a major part of on patch difficulty for TOP, and the DPS check for it was still relevant even a few patches later.

Anyway, I'd just prefer that PCT get some of its damage shifted into its uptime combos rather than its muses, that would mitigate the problem somewhat.

[rewd]

1. Legacy ultimate balance should actually matter, SE just doesn't give a shit about it for some reason. I'd rather they keep it in mind while balancing than not.

2. I agree that it's good to have some job differentiation, I just don't think that having such a clear damage difference is good differentiation.

3. Really don't get this sentiment when DPS checks were a major part of on patch difficulty for TOP, and the DPS check for it was still relevant even a few patches later.

Anyway, I'd just prefer that PCT get some of its damage shifted into its uptime combos rather than its muses, that would mitigate the problem somewhat.

1) They should matter but they don't. It's not that SE doesn't care, it's just that it is a big task that doesn't match the resources the game has. We have tons of job that gain and lose skills with a new expansion and some of them undergo mid-expansion reworks or changes. We also keep getting new jobs and new ultimates. It's a lot of work for a team that already struggles to design and balance jobs for current content

3) TOP is one ultimate out of five. In other words, the proverbial exception to the rule. If the DT ultimates have strict DPS checks, then we will be able to talk about the paradigm shift in Ultimate design.

[Galvuu]

3. Really don't get this sentiment when DPS checks were a major part of on patch difficulty for TOP, and the DPS check for it was still relevant even a few patches later.

Anyway, I'd just prefer that PCT get some of its damage shifted into its uptime combos rather than its muses, that would mitigate the problem somewhat.

While I'm ambivalent towards your suggestion (it could work), it's funny that it wouldn't change much of anything in TOP, because the phases with a tight check- p1 and p6- are pure uptime.

Picto needs a nerf, and even with Squares Mentality to just bring everyone up it doesnt work this time, we are not talking about a small gap or a lil bigger gap, we are talking about 8% to the next highest DPS, its way too much.

Where are you getting this figure from? I can't even challenge this because I can't find this specific number anywhere.

[AvoSturmfaust]

While I'm ambivalent towards your suggestion (it could work), it's funny that it wouldn't change much of anything in TOP, because the phases with a tight check- p1 and p6- are pure uptime.



Where are you getting this figure from? I can't even challenge this because I can't find this specific number anywhere.

Just ask the Balance Mentors, its like always a hot topic there, and if you wanna clearly numbers, check FFLogs, do a bit Math and you see it for yourself.

[Galvuu]

Just ask the Balance Mentors, its like always a hot topic there, and if you wanna clearly numbers, check FFLogs, do a bit Math and you see it for yourself.

I did check fflogs, and I did do the math, and Picto leads between 1.8% to 2.5%, depending on the metric, for current NM raids (it's obviously behind in adps).
For extreme trials, Picto doesn't even lead in most percentiles- it's 2nd in rdps and 3rd in cdps until the 90% percentile, where it finally takes over by a small sub 1% margin (so PCT is behind other jobs in rdps, adps and cdps until you hit the top 10% parses).
So I have no idea where this 8% figure came from. That's kinda why you need to explain what fight and what percentiles you're looking for, or I could open a random log and say a bogus number.
I'm not on the Balance, so idk what's being posted there, but the logs we have clearly show that the 8% number seems to be flat out wrong/fabricated.

[remiff]

I did check fflogs, and I did do the math, and Picto leads between 1.8% to 2.5%, depending on the metric, for current NM raids (it's obviously behind in adps).
For extreme trials, Picto doesn't even lead in most percentiles- it's 2nd in rdps and 3rd in cdps until the 90% percentile, where it finally takes over by a small sub 1% margin (so PCT is behind other jobs in rdps, adps and cdps until you hit the top 10% parses).
So I have no idea where this 8% figure came from. That's kinda why you need to explain what fight and what percentiles you're looking for, or I could open a random log and say a bogus number.
I'm not on the Balance, so idk what's being posted there, but the logs we have clearly show that the 8% number seems to be flat out wrong/fabricated.

He is probably talking about an 8-10% difference compared to the lowest DPS on the LOG list, which is the case.