#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Turtledeluxe]

I completely agree with this but I think it's also really sad because games like Elden Ring have shown how popular and "mainstream" the "overcoming hard challenges" type of gameplay can be.

There is obviously also a huge self-selection effect at play but the game's impressive growth compared to older Soulsborne titles could indicate that far more people are willing to try content that requires you to fail and learn if they are eased into it.

(And the funny thing is that ER doesn't even make it easy for new players. You have a lot more tools to make the game easier for you as you play but the beginning is still really tough for newbies.)

Now imagine a game that actually slowly introduces their players to increasing difficulties step by step and teaches you to gradually get more comfortable with harder content. If done right I really think this could work.

I'm not advocating for FF to adopt ER levels of difficulty of course. But I wonder if it's not just a problem of "what" (difficulty) but als of "how". As in, how your initial encounter with content that challenges your current skill level goes and how organically you can progress on that difficulty curve.

I wonder if proper game design could successfully utilise the psychology behind positive difficulty (having a good balance of rewards and frustration, with the scales tipped in such a way that the frustration doesn't become so big you want to quit but instead motivates you, while the rewards are fulfilling enough to generate a strong pull and intrinsic motivation themselves).

Because right now I think FF14 does a terrible job at dealing with those underlying psychological mechanisms, often making it a lot more stressful for casual players to even consider harder content.

Naturally you will never win everybody over to try harder things but I still think there is a lot of room for improvement in FF14's current game design and communication to make increasing difficulty exciting for inexperienced players without risking losing them or pushing casuals out.

Elden Ring caters to lots of different gamers because it's just straight forward enough that anyone can get it, but it's diverse enough that build crafters can get very creative and challenge runners can really sink their teeth in. If it's too hard, there are tools in the game to get help. It's hard for an MMO to replicate this kind of game on a mechanical level but it's worth considering conceptually. A lot of MMOs, including XIV, undo a lot of the things (like killing job complexity) basically because of endgame, to be as nonspecific and non accusatory as possible. Jobs are not being simplified (in general) because of ultra casual players. It is to make it so nothing non-standard and non predictable exists for the sake of endgame.

[Loggos]

Elden Ring caters to lots of different gamers because it's just straight forward enough that anyone can get it, but it's diverse enough that build crafters can get very creative and challenge runners can really sink their teeth in. If it's too hard, there are tools in the game to get help. It's hard for an MMO to replicate this kind of game on a mechanical level but it's worth considering conceptually. A lot of MMOs, including XIV, undo a lot of the things (like killing job complexity) basically because of endgame, to be as nonspecific and non accusatory as possible. Jobs are not being simplified (in general) because of ultra casual players. It is to make it so nothing non-standard and non predictable exists for the sake of endgame.

Yeah I completely agree with you. I also don't think it's possible to really translate Elden Ring into FF14. I just think it's an interesting counterpoint to the prevaling narrative of many gaming companies that games with inbuilt failure mechanisms can't be popular.

(I do think the way you write about how ER manages to cater to different players is a very good description. It sounds like the game managed to implement a bit of that "theme park" mentality, that FF14 strives for, quite successfully.)

I think FF14 can definitely go its own path in the way it approaches things and as you say make it suitable for an MMO on a conceptual level.

As mentioned above for me that means having a proper difficulty curve and guiding inexperienced players through this curve to give them positive exposure to challenges instead of associating them with fear and avoidance.
Both of which are currently completely lacking imo.

[Turtledeluxe]

Yeah I completely agree with you. I also don't think it's possible to really translate Elden Ring into FF14. I just think it's an interesting counterpoint to the prevaling narrative of many gaming companies that games with inbuilt failure mechanisms can't be popular.

(I do think the way you write about how ER manages to cater to different players is a very good description. It sounds like the game managed to implement a bit of that "theme park" mentality, that FF14 strives for, quite successfully.)

I think FF14 can definitely go its own path in the way it approaches things and as you say make it suitable for an MMO on a conceptual level.

As mentioned above for me that means having a proper difficulty curve and guiding inexperienced players through this curve to give them positive exposure to challenges instead of associating them with fear and avoidance.
Both of which are currently completely lacking imo.

Definitely agree. There's something off about the progression of difficulty in this game. It isn't non existent because there are outliers I can think of (exploratory zones come to mind, and I really like those), especially with select trials across the game or even particular alliance raids. I guess I wish we saw a bit more of that in the game overall, especially since rapid gear progression trivializes much of the content so fast anyway. Elden Ring doesn't have that problem because it is single player (so its way easier to lay out progression) and also because I think the devs trust the player more, while SE is hung up on metrics and studies.

[Malackai]

As a WHM main since ARR (dint really raid in ARR) did some some savage tries in HW but nothing serious back then (the group I was with was very laidback).
I am not a pro raider by any means (the whole 'colour' thingie isn't really my thing to begin with) Did some casual raiding in SB as well but dint really start with the last Omega Tier proper.

Even I am pretty disappointed on how my class WHM has ended up through the years same with other healers

In general we keep getting the whole healers should heal yet with every expansion we heal less and less in general. Especially after the first few weeks.

And now with EW having done the raids and the new Deep dungeon everything seems to be so mitigation heavy based or insta-kill mechanics if you get hit
or worse one person fails a group mechanic everyone just dies instantly so whats the point of healing then?

The recovery rate has gone a bit as well in EW raids.
The amount of times I just resigned and sighed during raids when a cohealer disconnected and I was sitting there after topping people of and popping wings and still
watching the whole raid just go boom because I wasn't able to mitigate properly.
or dealing with disconnects/deaths in general before certain mechanics goes out and hearing the people just sigh in annoyance (because it was one of those instant raid wipe mechanics) has been increasing a lot in EW.

I miss the times where me and the cohealer where able to just grit our teeth and where able to at least salvage a try that was going down so far south and recover(sure we would have hit enraged or maybe died a bit later but at least it felt a bit more rewarding in general) and in some cases we were able to recover and continue.

The whole pure/shield split isn't helping either tbh. Frankly at this point I rather just see healers become both but just with an unique play style per healer.

Or worse case go back to the old AST with a shield/regen sect and add those 'sects' to the other healers as well so people can pick to be a shield or regen healer and just pick the healer they enjoy playing with interesting playstyles per healer
I would not mind having a choice to have a shield mode instead of being a 'pure/regen' healer (we had protect back then and stoneskin just add reflects and shell or something as extra shield spells)

Frankly I am also still baffled that nothing new has been added to the lilly system since SHB
Why not make the new "glare" a lilly spell then atleast? still not a perfect solution but at least it would have been something I guess...
Also the same with the mitigation on top of the mitigation cool-down spell why is the new shield thing added to the wings? its... just.. I cant.
I have a lilly system... Why not make additions to that?

Also I am getting a bit tired of people going just wait till expansion is released it will be different just you watch.
It was just an old build will be tuned. You don't know yet how the new skills gonna work out or how it will change your game play. I have been hearing those same remarks since SB and up till now it never made a difference.

I remember WHM In SB telling after the media tour the lilly system was borked/clunky and because it was based on casting cure of all things... (chance to add lilly) and cure 2(adding a lilly)... no one listened
guess what when SB was released we still told it was borked as we expected and it got changed and tuned a bit they even overhauled it in ShB...

Sometimes you don't need to play first to see that somethings are a bad idea...

I don't need to play DT first to see that I am gonna be stuck with the same old again like I have pretty much been been since SB.

I can understand why Healers are reaching a breaking point for some it has been 6+ years now. Only to be told once again we look at it next expansion while the expansion being released is making things even more plain and guess for some people less complex and more boring.

Think I have mentioned this before but ever since I saw the Kuribu boss and seeing the reverse mechanic that boss had I am still sad they haven't dabbled in to that for the WHM Job it could have spiced things up a bit no need for extra dps buttons or anything because its just converts certain current healing spells to damage/dots instead (cleric but better.)
Would help to make MSQ fate farming and questing less dull as well.

[Somnolence]

Yeah I completely agree with you. I also don't think it's possible to really translate Elden Ring into FF14.

Fundamentally, endgame raiding is similar to Elden Ring bosses - you have a challenge, you chip at it to learn what works, and eventually you overcome and beat it, which results in nice dopamine rush.

Unfortunately FFXIV has no mechanisms to ease new/casual players into this and many don't even know that they are missing out and that would actually like to face and overcome this challenge.

[Loggos]

Fundamentally, endgame raiding is similar to Elden Ring bosses - you have a challenge, you chip at it to learn what works, and eventually you overcome and beat it, which results in nice dopamine rush.

Oh, I see! That's a good point!

Unfortunately FFXIV has no mechanisms to ease new/casual players into this and many don't even know that they are missing out and that would actually like to face and overcome this challenge.

I've only ever done Zeromus EX (one of the easier EX fights) and even here the difference between casual content and this fight was night and day for someone who had zero former exposure to this level of content.

Even basics like markers, positioning, sub-groups, countdown etc. were all new to me. I had to read up on all those things first and when I watched a guide I ended up taking several pages of notes and made a mini heal plan.

I went from not even caring which dungeon/trial I end up in because I know I'll get through them even if I have forgotten the fight, to sitting down, doing actual homework and preparing for a couple of hours.

It really didn't feel like a natural, smooth transition into harder content.
I'm a bit of a wannabe tryhard, so sitting down for some hours was ok for me.
But I can imagine that there are other people who (understandably I think) wouldn't want to bother with that much work out of nowhere.

(When you are a seasoned raider this kind of preparation and planning surely becomes part of the fun.
But if this is all new it feels like a huge chore that gets thrown into your face all of a sudden and gateskeeps you from playing (parts of) the game.)

[Ramiee]

I've only ever done Zeromus EX (one of the easier EX fights) and even here the difference between casual content and this fight was night and day for someone who had zero former exposure to this level of content.

Even basics like markers, positioning, sub-groups, countdown etc. were all new to me. I had to read up on all those things first and when I watched a guide I ended up taking several pages of notes and made a mini heal plan.

CBU3 Have never really ever done the transition from normal/story mode to extreme/savage/ultimate well at all.
Criterion dungeons are the most recent example of this, it went from something soloable to something thats nearly savage level, there was no >story/normal>hard>extreme>savage it was just story>savage.
This is why I believe hard mode should come back and be an actual transisitonal difficulty where you can die from failing mechanics and wipes are possible, concepts like light party splits, lack of indicator graphics, markers should all be introduced. Especially now with the whole text thing appearing on the screen they can use that to introduce extreme/savage mechanics in this figurative hard mode.

[Loggos]

CBU3 Have never really ever done the transition from normal/story mode to extreme/savage/ultimate well at all.
Criterion dungeons are the most recent example of this, it went from something soloable to something thats nearly savage level, there was no >story/normal>hard>extreme>savage it was just story>savage.
This is why I believe hard mode should come back and be an actual transisitonal difficulty where you can die from failing mechanics and wipes are possible, concepts like light party splits, lack of indicator graphics, markers should all be introduced. Especially now with the whole text thing appearing on the screen they can use that to introduce extreme/savage mechanics in this figurative hard mode.

Yep, absolutely this!
When I found out that criterion dungeons are basically another thing that requires a guide watching and homework session (because other players often expect it) I put it off again. I plan to do them eventually.

But in that moment (and also right now) I just wanted something challenging I can just jump into and figure out myself by reasonable trial and error.

Something that is, like you say, hard enough that you wipe several times but that you can still figure it out just by playing.
(Without needing the established knowledge and skill of an experienced raider to recognise certain high end mechanics.)

[Absurdity]

It really didn't feel like a natural, smooth transition into harder content.
I'm a bit of a wannabe tryhard, so sitting down for some hours was ok for me.
But I can imagine that there are other people who (understandably I think) wouldn't want to bother with that much work out of nowhere.

(When you are a seasoned raider this kind of preparation and planning surely becomes part of the fun.
But if this is all new it feels like a huge chore that gets thrown into your face all of a sudden and gateskeeps you from playing (parts of) the game.)

There absolutely are, and unfortunately they make for a frustrating pug experience. They join your party, have no idea what they're doing, are (understandibly) woefully unprepared for what they got themselves into and end up sandbagging everyone else.

Which then leads to everyone coming out of that pug with a bad experience, the experienced players because they got their time wasted, and the inexperienced player because they probably feel bad about their own performance and because they might have gotten some negative comments about it.

The complete lack of a difficulty curve is just bad for everyone.

[Loggos]

There absolutely are, and unfortunately they make for a frustrating pug experience. They join your party, have no idea what they're doing, are (understandibly) woefully unprepared for what they got themselves into and end up sandbagging everyone else.

Which then leads to everyone coming out of that pug with a bad experience, the experienced players because they got their time wasted, and the inexperienced player because they probably feel bad about their own performance and because they might have gotten some negative comments about it.

The complete lack of a difficulty curve is just bad for everyone.

Yeah that's true, that's the other side of the coin. Some people would like to get into harder content via "learning by doing" but (unless in that short period where there are no guides) this difficulty level just isn't the place for this style of learning, esp. for those new to raiding.

(Esp. as a healer when other people depend on you and you have to learn two things at once: the general nature of EX/Savage trials and dealing with an unfamiliar level of healing difficulty.
I first learned Zeromus as OT because it was easier for me to get the fight down.

This is another reason why the "just play harder content" comment is so unhelpful. Some people might have to split their learning process into two steps: learning the fight design on another class, and then switch back to healer to learn the new aspects of their role. So those players might have to take a detour first to even get to have fun, i.e., playing healer in harder content, that other classes often don't need to take.)