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  1. #3791
    Player
    Capstone's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Posts
    50
    Character
    Cap Stone
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinha View Post
    Looks like you are admitting there is no content in the game where healers are not spamming one damage button.
    Don't know what you're talking about. I asked if you'd ever done any of the mechs listed and you went on a tangent instead of answering. So I'll take your answer as a no. This is not meant to be dismissive--but if we can't talk about the intricacies of resource planning and management before during and after, say, jwaves, then we're just speaking different languages.
    (2)

  2. #3792
    Player
    aiqa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    333
    Character
    Eleasaid Seraqa
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Assur View Post
    I was reading the thread, My personal impression as a tank main, at least, is that some complaints are certainly valid, Especially, the WAR one. War is far too busted in the self sustain department, and I wish either for a hefty nerf or DRK to be buffed. How they achieve it, I don't care. I just want the level to be equalised a little as I feel DRK being a tad frail when it comes to certain content, which is probably something healer mains approve of? Appreciate, I guess? As we give them some work to do, or not. Who knows. I don't know the other side that well to call a judgement.
    The part of complaints from healers that focusses on tank sustain isn't a blanket "tanks should have as little heals as possible". It's about the devs mostly ignoring healers, seemingly perfectly happy to let tanks take over the healer role, and then doubling down on that direction in DT. There is a lot of wiggle room between no self and teamheals on tanks, and the point where that starts to invalidate the healer role. And those complaints specifically target the tank jobs actually do that; WAR and PLD a close second. I haven't seen a single healer complaining about DRK sustain in this thread, and fully agree tanks shouldn't feel fragile.
    (4)

  3. #3793
    Player
    Reinha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    4,069
    Character
    Reinha Sorrowmoon
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Capstone View Post
    Don't know what you're talking about. I asked if you'd ever done any of the mechs listed and you went on a tangent instead of answering. So I'll take your answer as a no. This is not meant to be dismissive--but if we can't talk about the intricacies of resource planning and management before during and after, say, jwaves, then we're just speaking different languages.
    Do you spend more time on GCD healing or GCD damage spells over the whole duration of those specific fights? I have done other savage bosses and would like to know the answer to that.
    (7)
    Graphics
    MSQ
    Viper

  4. #3794
    Player
    GrimGale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,112
    Character
    Grim Gaelasch
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by aiqa View Post
    The part of complaints from healers that focusses on tank sustain isn't a blanket "tanks should have as little heals as possible". It's about the devs mostly ignoring healers, seemingly perfectly happy to let tanks take over the healer role, and then doubling down on that direction in DT. There is a lot of wiggle room between no self and teamheals on tanks, and the point where that starts to invalidate the healer role. And those complaints specifically target the tank jobs actually do that; WAR and PLD a close second. I haven't seen a single healer complaining about DRK sustain in this thread, and fully agree tanks shouldn't feel fragile.
    The generalizing issue is that there is nothing interesting to do when the "healing" part of the healer job has been solved. Having tanks with strong sustain only aggravates that issue since it naturally makes the healing part quicker to solve and leaves healers with nothing but their DPS kits ,witch are as barren and simple as they could be.

    If our filler dps kits were satisfying, nobody would be mad at the tanks for removing healing time from healer roles. (well maybe just the people that want to play as heal bots)
    (6)

  5. #3795
    Player
    Assur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2024
    Posts
    11
    Character
    Aurora Aurea
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    I am not criticising here or objecting. I am just curious. Because mainly as a dungeon clearer as a DRK, I feel the need for a healer acutely. People say here that healers are not needed and that their role is made obsolete in easy as well as in hard content. I cannot agree with this statement. As a DRK, WAR is a completely different story, I can't clear even a normal dungeon without them. I need them. I depend on them. Otherwise, I die if they mess up. For me, you healers are essential, and I am glad to have one at my side.

    And I feel differences in quality depending on the healers in question. There are more skilled ones. There are less skilled ones. They influence how I run my dungeon. But even with the skill ones, I have the impression that they quite the handful to do and often put to the test, which is why I ask.

    Because I don't know the modus operandi of those who say their role is invalidated in dungeon clears, and they are just reduced to one button DPS spam. I don't see this reality.
    (2)

  6. #3796
    Player
    Amity_Roji's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2022
    Posts
    24
    Character
    Amity Roji
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 92
    Quote Originally Posted by Assur View Post
    Anyway, I got the impression from some people here in the thread that dungeons are basically brain dead content and two or three heals see any tank through. With the consequence that they have barely any work to do and barely have to sue their full healing kit, which is why the healers call now for a damage increase to make them relevant again or an actual DPS rotation worth its salt.
    Or just more challenging content. I think many if not most healers want to...uhh...heal. Having a better DPS rotation is sort of a "well, if you're not gonna make encounters where we actually have to focus on healing as our main activity/priority then at least give us something engaging to do while DPSing instead of hitting two buttons."

    Quote Originally Posted by Assur View Post
    Granted, I don't know how these people run their content. And granted I am a casual here and basically dungeon peasant, which I find fun to run, but these views don't align with my experience.

    At least, from my impression, some healers have quite a hard time. One, two or three heals and some mitigation don't cut it. It can be quite sticky at times. And from time to time, I bite the dust for being a bit too eager.
    Emphasis mine. Have you ever thought about how the very concept of wall-pulling (your "eagerness" here) is an invalidation of the healer role? Damage is so inconsequential that it's standard practice for tanks to pull literally every possible mob they can and have the group just AoE everything down with no thought. In fact, most groups will get irritated with you if you don't wall-pull. Your experience is colored by this status quo, and the "issues" you're having with healers actually having to heal are probably because you're having healers who aren't synced to crap (newer players, people leveling healer jobs and aren't mega-geared, etc.).

    In short, the game has devalued healing to such a severe extent that the gameplay meta assumes healing is not needed - and when it is (your "eager" instances) it's considered a flaw in the healer, not the meta. That's the problem.
    (7)
    Last edited by Amity_Roji; 06-19-2024 at 09:48 PM.

  7. #3797
    Player
    GrimGale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,112
    Character
    Grim Gaelasch
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Assur View Post
    I don't see this reality.
    So this basically means that if you get randomly paired with players that know their kits and avoid damage your class/role gets reduced to a 1 button spam.
    (2)

  8. #3798
    Player
    aiqa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    333
    Character
    Eleasaid Seraqa
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimGale View Post
    The generalizing issue is that there is nothing interesting to do when the "healing" part of the healer job has been solved. Having tanks with strong sustain only aggravates that issue since it naturally makes the healing part quicker to solve and leaves healers with nothing but their DPS kits ,witch are as barren and simple as they could be.

    If our filler dps kits were fun nobody would be mad at the tanks for removing healing time from healer roles.
    I don't agree with that. There are multiple issues with the healer role, listed quite well in the manifesto in the opening post of this thread. Just tweaking the damage buttons is not enough. There are even people who are perfectly fine with the damage buttons, but still support the strike because they are concerned about the other points.
    (2)

  9. #3799
    Player
    WeakestZenosEnjoyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2024
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    288
    Character
    Scrappy Moonlord
    World
    Halicarnassus
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    DRK does need a healer to clear a dungeon efficiently, TBN is good but it doesn't max your HP + Mitigate 15~% + do your laundry + spot heal the Dragoon.

    DRK also has no answer to healing raidwides, because why would they? WAR sure does though just shake it off. Even still DRK has all the power they need to wall pull dungeons and solo boss fights so what the hell is WAR doing?
    (4)
    Last edited by WeakestZenosEnjoyer; 06-19-2024 at 09:33 PM.

  10. #3800
    Player
    Assur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2024
    Posts
    11
    Character
    Aurora Aurea
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Amity_Roji View Post
    Or just more challenging content. I think many if not most healers want to...uhh...heal. Having a better DPS rotation is sort of a "well, if you're not gonna make encounters where we actually have to focus on healing as our main activity/priority then at least give us something engaging to do while DPSing instead of hitting two buttons."


    Emphasis mine. Have you ever thought about how the very concept of wall-pulling (your "eagerness" here) is an invalidation of the healer role? Damage is so inconsequential that it's standard practice for tanks to pull literally every possible mob they can and have the group just AoE everything down with no thought. In fact, most groups will get irritated with you if you don't wall-pull. Your experience is colored by this status quo, and the "issues" you're having with healers actually having to heal are probably because you're having healers who aren't synced to crap (newer players, people leveling healer jobs and aren't sync'd to hell, etc.).

    In short, the game has devalued healing to such a severe extent that the gameplay meta assumes healing is not needed - and when it is (your "eager" instances) it's considered a flaw in the healer, not the meta. That's the problem.
    I am not sure how wall pulling is devaluating the healer’s role. Unless you are WAR, doest it put more strain and responsibility on the healer? Without a healer, I as a DRK would certainly not survive my pulls in a satisfying manner, so I see them as quintessential to my approach, unable to do without them. But that is, admittedly, a tank’s perspective. And it might not be that challenging enough for your healers.
    (2)

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