#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Amity_Roji]

Anyway, I got the impression from some people here in the thread that dungeons are basically brain dead content and two or three heals see any tank through. With the consequence that they have barely any work to do and barely have to sue their full healing kit, which is why the healers call now for a damage increase to make them relevant again or an actual DPS rotation worth its salt.

Or just more challenging content. I think many if not most healers want to...uhh...heal. Having a better DPS rotation is sort of a "well, if you're not gonna make encounters where we actually have to focus on healing as our main activity/priority then at least give us something engaging to do while DPSing instead of hitting two buttons."

Granted, I don't know how these people run their content. And granted I am a casual here and basically dungeon peasant, which I find fun to run, but these views don't align with my experience.

At least, from my impression, some healers have quite a hard time. One, two or three heals and some mitigation don't cut it. It can be quite sticky at times. And from time to time, I bite the dust for being a bit too eager.

Emphasis mine. Have you ever thought about how the very concept of wall-pulling (your "eagerness" here) is an invalidation of the healer role? Damage is so inconsequential that it's standard practice for tanks to pull literally every possible mob they can and have the group just AoE everything down with no thought. In fact, most groups will get irritated with you if you don't wall-pull. Your experience is colored by this status quo, and the "issues" you're having with healers actually having to heal are probably because you're having healers who aren't synced to crap (newer players, people leveling healer jobs and aren't mega-geared, etc.).

In short, the game has devalued healing to such a severe extent that the gameplay meta assumes healing is not needed - and when it is (your "eager" instances) it's considered a flaw in the healer, not the meta. That's the problem.

[WeakestZenosEnjoyer]

DRK does need a healer to clear a dungeon efficiently, TBN is good but it doesn't max your HP + Mitigate 15~% + do your laundry + spot heal the Dragoon.

DRK also has no answer to healing raidwides, because why would they? WAR sure does though just shake it off. Even still DRK has all the power they need to wall pull dungeons and solo boss fights so what the hell is WAR doing?

[Assur]

DRK does need a healer to clear a dungeon efficiently, TBN is good but it doesn't max your HP + Mitigate 15~% + do your laundry + spot heal the Dragoon.

DRK also has no answer to healing raidwides, because why would they? WAR sure does though just shake it off. Even still DRK has all the power they need to wall pull dungeons and solo boss fights so what the hell is WAR doing?

Thank you, my point.

[Assur]

Or just more challenging content. I think many if not most healers want to...uhh...heal. Having a better DPS rotation is sort of a "well, if you're not gonna make encounters where we actually have to focus on healing as our main activity/priority then at least give us something engaging to do while DPSing instead of hitting two buttons."


Emphasis mine. Have you ever thought about how the very concept of wall-pulling (your "eagerness" here) is an invalidation of the healer role? Damage is so inconsequential that it's standard practice for tanks to pull literally every possible mob they can and have the group just AoE everything down with no thought. In fact, most groups will get irritated with you if you don't wall-pull. Your experience is colored by this status quo, and the "issues" you're having with healers actually having to heal are probably because you're having healers who aren't synced to crap (newer players, people leveling healer jobs and aren't sync'd to hell, etc.).

In short, the game has devalued healing to such a severe extent that the gameplay meta assumes healing is not needed - and when it is (your "eager" instances) it's considered a flaw in the healer, not the meta. That's the problem.

I am not sure how wall pulling is devaluating the healer’s role. Unless you are WAR, doest it put more strain and responsibility on the healer? Without a healer, I as a DRK would certainly not survive my pulls in a satisfying manner, so I see them as quintessential to my approach, unable to do without them. But that is, admittedly, a tank’s perspective. And it might not be that challenging enough for your healers.

[Basteala]

I am not sure how wall pulling is devaluating the healer’s role. Unless you are WAR, doest it put more strain and responsibility on the healer? Without a healer, I as a DRK would certainly not survive my pulls in a satisfying manner, so I see them as quintessential to my approach, unable to do without them. But that is, admittedly, a tank’s perspective. And it might not be that challenging enough for your healers.

Honestly with the improved Living Dead you shouldn't have that much problem surviving in EW dungeons.

Besides, as a SCH if I see you go to like 50-60% and I don't see X-Cogitation on you, I'm just gonna Lustrate you, and go back to spamming. Healing really is that easy nowadays.

[Assur]

Honestly with the improved Living Dead you shouldn't have that much problem surviving in EW dungeons.

Besides, as a SCH if I see you go to like 50-60% and I don't see X-Cogitation on you, I'm just gonna Lustrate you, and go back to spamming. Healing really is that easy nowadays.

If the healer does their job correctly, I don't die. Simple as that. I rarely have the need to resort to Living Dead, aside from it being too situational and reactive. And I need to put my trust into the healer.

Anyway, surviving per se isn't an issue. The question of how much effort on the part of the healer is required and whether it satisfies your needs?

That I can't say. Because I don't really know how you run the content. I don't know the pace. I don't know your healers.

After all, it might be indeed too easy and sleep inducing for you. Meanwhile, my friend I clear content with and who is a healer main complains at times about being strained.

So is this a general problem among healers? Or a problem that affects only healers above average?

Because keep in mind, if you are above average, that means that are at least 50% of players that are below you.

[Amity_Roji]

I am not sure how wall pulling is devaluating the healer’s role. Unless you are WAR, doest it put more strain and responsibility on the healer? Without a healer, I as a DRK would certainly not survive my pulls in a satisfying manner, so I see them as quintessential to my approach, unable to do without them. But that is, admittedly, a tank’s perspective. And it might not be that challenging enough for your healers.

I think you're approaching this from the wrong perspective. Wall-pulling is not devaluing healers, it is a symptom of the fact that healers are devalued. The mere fact that it's not just possible but expected shows that the encounter design is not putting focus on healing as an activity.

Or to think of it another way - when was the last time you had to carefully consider your pulls because of concerns that the healer(s) would not have enough healing output to keep the party alive? Or, how often is available healing the limiting factor of an encounter (e.g., "heal checks")?

Yes, wall pulling means we'll have to heal a bit (and maybe more if it's an at-level/not mega-sync'd dungeon) - but even then we're DPSing more than we're healing, by a long way. If party DPS is high enough most WHMs won't have to heal at all since Holy has a stun attached.

And really the same encounter design issues are affecting tanks too. When was the last time you had to focus on threat generation so the DPS or healer(s) didn't pull aggro? When have you had to focus on damage mitigation (either for yourself or the party) more than your DPS rotation? Threat generation is a joke - you just turn on tank stance and slap an AoE DPS ability and you've got everything welded to you. Damage mitigation in most cases consists of just hitting a single cooldown. Your role is homogenized as well - only the tank jobs actually get decent DPS rotations to have something to do. We just keep up a DOT and spam one ability.

[Assur]

I think you're approaching this from the wrong perspective. Wall-pulling is not devaluing healers, it is a symptom of the fact that healers are devalued. The mere fact that it's not just possible but expected shows that the encounter design is not putting focus on healing as an activity.

Or to think of it another way - when was the last time you had to carefully consider your pulls because of concerns that the healer(s) would not have enough healing output to keep the party alive? Or, how often is available healing the limiting factor of an encounter (e.g., "heal checks")?

Yes, wall pulling means we'll have to heal a bit (and maybe more if it's an at-level/not mega-sync'd dungeon) - but even then we're DPSing more than we're healing, by a long way. If party DPS is high enough most WHMs won't have to heal at all since Holy has a stun attached.

And really the same encounter design issues are affecting tanks too. When was the last time you had to focus on threat generation so the DPS or healer(s) didn't pull aggro? When have you had to focus on damage mitigation (either for yourself or the party) more than your DPS rotation? Threat generation is a joke - you just turn on tank stance and slap an AoE DPS ability and you've got everything welded to you. Damage mitigation in most cases consists of just hitting a single cooldown. Your role is homogenized as well - only the tank jobs actually get decent DPS rotations to have something to do. We just keep up a DOT and spam one ability.

The last time I actually considered was Doma castle after the first boss when I pulled through the two cannons and the healer lagged behind, causing us all to die. Granted, I should have realised such much earlier and popped Living Dead premptively. But it was clear to me that the pull might cause issues, but that was admittedly less a healing issue and more a movement issue.

Another one is Stone Vigil where I pulled into the first boss. I was curious how it would end. I reached the boss, but it didn't end well admittedly.

Satasha it happens sometimes too where I pull into the first boss, but that is more manageable admittedly.

Darkhold I tried too recently pulling until the second boss. Wasn't the smartest decision either.

The Shisui one is fun, but there is little risk of dying, admittedly and fairly healable.

Ala Mhigo works at times. It is more of a bet there depending on how reliable the healer is, but that is once again more a movement question.

But these are all older dungeons, and you are right that the newer ones don't allow for them. I think I remember Troia had one too, though, but I could be wrong.

Outside of that, I expect healers indeed to manage 2 group pulls.

[fulminating]

In short, the game has devalued healing to such a severe extent that the gameplay meta assumes healing is not needed - and when it is (your "eager" instances) it's considered a flaw in the healer, not the meta. That's the problem.

I don’t want think this is necessarily the only conclusion that can be drawn: there are few triple pulls in endwalker expert/90 dungeons. There is usually a barrier that only falls on defeat of the first 2 groups in the set of 4 before each boss. This can only be by design. This can be contrasted with mt gulg, which has two actual wall pulls (start to holy cow gate, boss 2 to angel doorboss). The latter were difficult on content and not always successfully pulled off. I think there is a very reasonable argument that 2 groups of mobs is the “expected” pull, only divided into halves to facilitate groups when a support disconnects.