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  1. #2721
    Player
    IDontPetLalas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    1,419
    Character
    Alinne Seamont
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Varipanda View Post
    I have been more pushed levelling astro than I have any other classes in dungeons, I have also played a lot of MMO's and usually there is some wacky mischief that you can pull like no healer runs. I think there is a bit of confusion here with my point on dungeons . Dungeons being part of the MSQ SHOULD be the lowest common denominator for difficulty which they are and that means at that difficulty they should be essentially role agnostic if the players are good enough . but the community has responded by just saying ' Well I'll wall to wall then ' so there is a very difficult balance now you can
    A) up the difficulty of all packs disallowing wall to walls from now on and the forums explode from that one decision.
    B) Balance damage for the very best tanks to still be able to wall to wall but your average tank being unable to but culturally it will still be the standard because if Xeems can do it so can I will lead to the absolute curse of getting that one awful gun-breaker who was carried by a god tier white mage that one time.
    c) remove all self heal skills from tanks , making them essentially shit dps with rampart seeing as they've already removed emnity
    D) increase the difficulty of Dps rotations where you get the inevitable backlash of ' Im a healer not a dps'

    I think the real solution is keep leveling dungeons as they are but normalize a higher level of play required in anything outside of the MSQ.which they've kind of already said they are doing.
    There's a lot of point in your post, however, let me start with- you're levelling your AST. In this game, healing is harder when you're levelling, and easier as you gain experience and skills.

    Regarding your specific points

    A) wouldn't do, I would not block W2W, I would be more interested in more innovative dungeon paths, or randomizing them - so more like criterion
    B) No, and going back to your original post- tanks should be able to cycle their basic skills. (If I can do it on a tank, anyone can do it). People need to hit their buttons (DPS included), the bar is not that high.
    C)No one has asked for "all" self-heals to be removed, more of an adjustment
    D) You're talking about "difficulty", that's very subjective. Keep in mind however that want can be "difficult" at level 30 may not be difficult after several hundred hours, or at level 100.
    (5)

  2. #2722
    Player
    GoodPerson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2024
    Posts
    32
    Character
    Good Person
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn View Post
    I get that I play healer on and off, my biggest concern with going more HPS is the UI lag, but im guess im almost out of posts for the day all the best!
    Oh right the ui lag!
    Valid concern but, using Barb as a guide post again, I don't think that was a major concern? I may be wrong, it's been a long time since I've done barb
    (1)

  3. #2723
    Player
    Ramiee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2022
    Location
    Uldah
    Posts
    1,096
    Character
    Grainne Gothram
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by mellii View Post
    and with all of that I agree, more variety and options would be a good thing and wording it like that is not something I have any issue with as well. Even though it would have been nice if you included something in your response that would at least be on the points I was talking about (because nothing I personally talked about with you was about how the game should be and only about how dismissive something else you said was in my opinion), so it feels like you are not really engaging with what I am saying
    Every time i've broken down and responded to everything someone says to me, I get a one sentence response so I don't really care anymore unless its a less open topic. This entire reply chain we have had was about me saying if someone doesn't like a key aspect of a game to not play the game, which was a tiny part at the end of my comment and thats all im responding to. I am sorry but I do not have a subtle opinion on this, I say it how I feel and how I feel is that people who don't like a main part of the game shouldn't play it.
    If they want to be a social player fine, I don't touch that part of the game, but I don't want the part of the game I like to be ruined by people who don't enjoy it. Have duty support and trust there for people who want an easy mode to breeze through the game so they can just do what they like if they don't like the PVE. Compromise is only compromise if one side isn't off worse then the other.
    (6)
    Last edited by Ramiee; 06-17-2024 at 12:44 AM.

  4. #2724
    Player
    GoodPerson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2024
    Posts
    32
    Character
    Good Person
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by GoodPerson View Post
    Oh right the ui lag!
    Valid concern but, using Barb as a guide post again, I don't think that was a major concern? I may be wrong, it's been a long time since I've done barb
    To add, I'm not saying I want Xiv to be WoW. It'd be nice as its own mmo to blend the two together but they're different games appealing to different audiences, which is fine. We don't need super sharp UI, 1.5 or less gcds, a busy screen, etc. Just interactivity, engagement and ultimately, fun. They succeed on this very well with dps, Tanks as well to a slightly smaller extent. Only reason I say HPS is because it's something healers are already very good at, and would require the least change as it already exists in game although, only occasionally.
    (1)

  5. #2725
    Player
    aiqa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    354
    Character
    Eleasaid Seraqa
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn View Post
    I get that I play healer on and off, my biggest concern with going more HPS is the UI lag, but im guess im almost out of posts for the day all the best!
    Partly agreed. Increasing incoming damage, just so healer can actually fulfill their healer role, isn't always a good way forward. That makes it far more difficult to reactively heal, which can by fine for some content but probably not so much for the story dungeons. That is why I prefer mostly lowering heals from non-healer roles, over mostly increasing incoming damage.
    (1)

  6. #2726
    Player
    ZephyrMenodora's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    2,314
    Character
    Zephyr Menodora
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by KageTokage View Post
    XIV is the only MMO I've seen that's so aggressive about bending backwards to cater to less-skilled players vs. actually challenging them to improve and learn, and it's dubious if it's even doing that much good for the player metrics.

    I liked being able to offer advice to people complaining about the SB MSQ duties in novice network so they could succeed, but then they just added easy mode so they don't even need to try anymore.
    I'm here to support this comment. Throughout this thread we've seen quite a few comments from certain people that they don't think they should encounter any failure or adversity when grouping with unskilled players, because unskilled players exist. Oddly this argument is cyclical - these players will never improve if they have no reason to, no failures they need to overcome, no one pushing them to improve their skills.

    An MMO should slowly increase in difficulty as the levels increase, with the theory that people should be developing a skill set as they advance in the game. It's so strange that a good number of XIV players want no difficulty outside of the top 5% of endgame content.

    The other day I had an alliance raid complain how "rough" the run was because there were about 5 1st timers undergeared. There were no wipes. Those players died regularly but it didn't cause any more issues than the inconvenience of slower dps and some additional rezzes. But I guess in XIV, succeeding the very first try with unskilled players is nearly an unacceptable challenge. Note if a group actually wipes it's not uncommon to see several people just leave the raid/dungeon, so unused they are to any difficulty.

    Maybe there are a large number of players who just love to sleepwalk through content, I guess.
    (27)
    Last edited by ZephyrMenodora; 06-17-2024 at 12:57 AM. Reason: Typo

  7. 06-17-2024 12:59 AM

  8. #2727
    Player
    ZephyrMenodora's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    2,314
    Character
    Zephyr Menodora
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica_VS View Post
    The biggest problem with this thread, like most forum threads, is that many of the people expressing discontent disagree strongly with each other on how to resolve the situation and/or improve healing in the game. Almost everyone here is suggesting a different idea, and almost every different idea directly contradicts another person's idea.

    There are plenty of people here who have even disagreed outright with the original post's comments, general complaints, and suggested remedies, while still agreeing with disliking the general state of healing.

    All this would be much more effective if we: 1, figure out what exactly we want changed; 2, figure out exactly how to change it; 3, articulate that specific point without deviation.

    Unfortunately, this thread has become incomprehensible because many people are complaining about different aspects and/or suggesting fixes that contradict other suggested fixes. The narrative (if there even is one) makes no sense and would be unhelpful for any developer who may want to improve the healing aspects of the game. A reader of this thread hardly would be able to figure out what, exactly, people want here because nearly everyone wants something different.

    Right now the message is basically: "We don't like it!" When asked, "How do we fix it then?" the answers are "ALKWJERLKEMGLRGLKESJRELKSJRL," a crowd of individuals all shouting different things. I doubt we'll see any positive changes unless we can agree and articulate those points of agreement in a consistent and polite manner.
    I think here though the healers in support of the thread are united that the present state of healing is unacceptable, and I'm sure that we would compromise in ways that make the class more exciting.

    I don't really want more focus on DPS, but I will sure take more interesting DPS skill interactions. Even healers that want more DPS also are okay with increasing healing necessity through more situations healing is needed.

    Just because we don't agree on maybe some minutia, doesn't mean we should throw our hands up in the air.

    Consistency wise regardless of different ideas on smaller details I've seen almost no one disagreeing that:

    1. Healer's don't actually need to heal that much.
    2. Casting 1 skill over and over is boring.

    It's a start just there.
    (18)
    Last edited by ZephyrMenodora; 06-17-2024 at 01:05 AM.

  9. #2728
    Player
    GoodPerson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2024
    Posts
    32
    Character
    Good Person
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica_VS View Post
    The biggest problem with this thread, like most forum threads, is that many of the people expressing discontent disagree strongly with each other on how to resolve the situation and/or improve healing in the game. Almost everyone here is suggesting a different idea, and almost every different idea directly contradicts another person's idea.

    There are plenty of people here who have even disagreed outright with the original post's comments, general complaints, and suggested remedies, while still agreeing with disliking the general state of healing.

    All this would be much more effective if we: 1, figure out what exactly we want changed; 2, figure out exactly how to change it; 3, articulate that specific point without deviation.

    Unfortunately, this thread has become incomprehensible because many people are complaining about different aspects and/or suggesting fixes that contradict other suggested fixes. The narrative (if there even is one) makes no sense and would be unhelpful for any developer who may want to improve the healing aspects of the game. A reader of this thread hardly would be able to figure out what, exactly, people want here because nearly everyone wants something different.

    Right now the message is basically: "We don't like it!" When asked, "How do we fix it then?" the answers are "ALKWJERLKEMGLRGLKESJRELKSJRL," a crowd of individuals all shouting different things. I doubt we'll see any positive changes unless we can agree and articulate those points of agreement in a consistent and polite manner.
    The point of the thread isn't strictly to "have suggestions" as much as it is to bring notice to it and list what we generally would like fixed. We already have over the years culminated a number of suggestions (Mostly thanks to threads like the This healer one from 2020. As ultimately, we aren't or majority of us aren't game developers and its more up to YoshiP and his team to hopefully deliver a solution that helps what healers have been asking for the last 4+ years.

    With that said there's some nice general suggestions around but the general "Desire" floats around:
    "
    1. Return of unique playstyles and iconic/fun abilities such as aero 3, varied cards, selene and so forth. End this horrible Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis spam!
    2. Better communication with the dev team regarding how the jobs will evolve. If the devs aren't sure how to expand healers, there's a wide range of players they could turn to for suggestions and ideas"
    Probably some more, but those are probably the most common issues desired to be addressed
    (3)

  10. #2729
    Player
    Gemina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Dravania
    Posts
    5,778
    Character
    Gemina Lunarian
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Calysto View Post
    I so want to change my sig to this, but would want permission from the artist.
    <3 <3 <3 <3
    (4)

  11. #2730
    Player
    WeakestZenosEnjoyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2024
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    288
    Character
    Scrappy Moonlord
    World
    Halicarnassus
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica_VS View Post
    The biggest problem with this thread, like most forum threads, is that many of the people expressing discontent disagree strongly with each other on how to resolve the situation and/or improve healing in the game. Almost everyone here is suggesting a different idea, and almost every different idea directly contradicts another person's idea.
    There are a lot of ideas floating around but the only one I've seen that is directly contradictory is the tank sustain argument,

    "heal more" vs "more interesting damage rotation" aren't contradictory for instance, I'd argue we need both actually, even "I actually like the GCD nuke" can easily be integrated with one of the four healers instead of making all four the same.
    (6)

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