How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Renathras]

Uh huh, doesn't work according to who?

According to the position of "If you can clear content now, you can clear that same level/type of content post-change playing your rotation exactly as you play it right now".

Why are your anecdotes any more important than anyone else's?

"more important"?

They're proof that the change would cause harm.

Honestly, all you have to do right now is admit "What I, Aravell, want would harm some players, I agree. I think it's worth it, though, for <insert reasons>." The issue I have with you is the adamant rejection of reality. You don't want to admit your proposal WOULD hurt people, and it would. You can try to explain it away, but it absolutely would, and my examples are the proof of it. That's why they're relevant.

If someone proposes a theory to explain something, and others find even a single case where it doesn't hold, then that cannot be the correct model. It didn't take millions of examples opposing Newtonian Mechanics to prove it was wrong, it only took one.

As to the latter:

You say you should be "rewarded for doing more work", which REQUIRES that other people do worse than you who are not. That is your position, is it not? That is a REQUIREMENT of the idea of having a high skill ceiling vs skill floor gap in performance - 20%, wasn't it? Further, people WOULDN'T be clearing content. That's what I've told you and you just ignore it.

"skill ceiling should be higher and mastery should be rewarded (with a 20% performance boost)" IS saying "other people who do not do this should do worse than me, and if it is sufficient to prevent clearing content, then they should not clear content".

The difference is, I fill all my dead GCDs with damage spells, meaning I'm not a Sylphie by definition - "I won't do any damage to anything, I only heal". On the other hand, an elitist is generally defined as one who believes that other people who do not do what they do should not perform at their level, they should be rewarded with performance and clears and gear and so on exclusive to people who perform at their level. The only difference between you and a hyper-elitist is they don't want anyone to even clear the content whereas your position is you think people can still clear (Extremes) with an all gray party, despite that being factually untrue. Come to think of it, are there any cases of at-level Extremes being cleared by parties where every member has a 0? Probably not. However, you do hold the position when it comes to "week 1 savage and ultimates".

So you actually DO meet the definition based on your stated positions. You can lie about me, but I objectively do not meet the definition of Sylphie, so that makes it a lie and an insult. You do meet the definition of elitist within tolerable limits, with the only distinction being you refuse to admit the reality of what your changes would do.

I'm not here to call you names anyway, so I'm not going to persist in this tangential stupidity, only say this:

You are refusing to admit reality. The reality is, your changes WOULD hurt people unless content was balanced around the bottom end of the spectrum we're talking about (not we're not talking Cure spammers or even Glare spammers; we're talking people who use Glare, Dia, Misery, Assize, and PoM in the way that is optimal today; and people that don't even do that perfectly can still get clears, so it would actually need to be balanced LOWER than this to not impact anyone), which accounts for an ~25% of a DPSer increase in overall party damage for a party with 2 healers operating optimally under the proposed changes, making high end players able to trivially clear content.

Admit it, or don't, I don't care. But your plan WOULD hurt people OR leave high end players bored with bosses falling over like tissue paper, neither of which is good for the game.

I find really funny that discussion arises for healers when asked to put a fraction of the effort that tanks and dps are required to clear any content with enrage.

No, that's not why "discussion arises". It's when people who want engaging HEALING content where they HEAL people are told "Sorry, best I can do is more damage buttons making you a SMN-lite".

This isn't about "making it so that others can clear content but I can", it's about making it more fun for everyone.

I mean, that's what I've proposed - something that makes it more fun for (nearly) everyone.

The reason I put in "(nearly)" is because no system makes it fun for EVERYone. Giving all the healers more complex DPS kits would NOT make it more fun for everyone. It would make it more fun for people that want more complex DPS kits. It wouldn't make it more fun for people that want more challenging healing. It wouldn't make it more fun for people that are ambivalent. Overstating things like this is part of the problem.

On the other hand, the 4 Healers Model WOULD make it more fun for everyone other than the people who don't want people who don't play like them to stand even with them on the field of battle, or who want to force everyone to play their way, or the people that might like a SPECIFIC healer's aesthetic but not their playstyle (but this happens no matter what if you make their kits different from each other, and it's happening right now anyway, so that's an acceptable loss since there's literally no way TO avoid it).

...but it's the closest idea to one that DOES make everyone happy and make it more fun for everyone.

On the other hand, "more dps complexity" DOES NOT make it more fun for EVERYone. It ONLY makes it more fun for the people that want a more complex DPS kit.

The argument IS NEVER "design healing around the lowest common denominator of players". That's the lie.

The argument IS "design healing for people that enjoy HEALING and want to do more of it, and split the healer kits so that there is something for those who want more DPS buttons (like SB SCH) and for those who do not (like EW WHM)". THAT is the discussion. It's not about "infantilizing" things. It's about having things for different people who enjoy different things.

That's all it's ever about, despite people always trying to make it about "making it dumb where everyone hates it vs making it awesome where everyone loves it", which is a lie on both ends; no one's arguing to make healing where you have only one button (not "one damage button", I mean ONLY one button or ANYTHING close to that), nor is the other end making it fun for everyone/where everyone loves it; it's making it where people that specifically want more DPS buttons love it and screw everyone else.

.

And I think that's it for me for now. o7

[Sebazy]

To be fair, what determines someone's fun IS opinion/preference, is it not? So when advocating for designs to be fun (to the person), that's the only thing that actually IS relevant in the end: Is it fun (for them) to play or isn't it.

They can't think that highly of the role's fun factor given that they barely play it

It's a time old classic post and IMO you're reading far too much into it. These comments generally boil down to 'make healers impossible to mess up on so I never have to worry about them letting me die'. It has nothing to do with actual fun outside of their own on an entirely different role. FFXIV has this wild and wacky aversion to failure at any level of content remember.

Same problem. Balance for the middle and the lower half that can clear content now no longer will be able to, thus leading to them being harmed/bothered.

It doesn't work unless you balance to the bottom.

In my humble opinion, this is only an issue because SE have brought it on themselves precisely by balancing to the absolute bottom for years now. ARR on release was impeccably tuned and balanced and had a fantastic difficulty curve that steadily ramped up from AV, through the expert dungeons, into HM primals and onto Coil, even Alliance sat neatly in line. In essence, ARR had midcore content because it had a smooth curve that lead up out from leveling dungeons and into the endgame.

It was very possible to wipe in an expert dungeon, never mind a HM primal, people got used to it and as such, it was less of a problem, more people were happier to dust themselves off and put a bit more effort in. You saw that going into Titan HM where people would pool together huge shells that could field multiple teams capable of clearing it all night long to help those that were struggling (I refuse to believe that Ragnarok was alone on this, I had like 4 full linkshells and people were still had to be asked to leave once they had all their weapons and weren't up for helping others to make more room).

Now we're in this weird state where it's actually kind of challenging to wipe outside of Extremes but on the rare occasion that it does happen, people lose their minds.

I'm not saying that we need to return to the days of FFXI, but you yourself have commented that we have no midcore content so you're clearly aware of that problem. Where is that midcore content? It vanished into the casual mire when it all got tuned to the bottom of course.

If we want midcore content, the difficulty has to start somewhere, it doesn't need to be a steep curve and it certainly doesn't want to be a wall. It just needs to be a ramp that starts from somewhere like Alliance and needs to be tuned just a little above the bottom to wake people up and get them watching their screens again.

[Renathras]

It's a time old classic post and IMO you're reading far too much into it. These comments generally boil down to 'make healers impossible to mess up on so I never have to worry about them letting me die'. It has nothing to do with actual fun outside of their own on an entirely different role. FFXIV has this wild and wacky aversion to failure at any level of content remember.

It really isn't this, though. Have you see this thread: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...mplex-DPS-kits

You posted in it, but have you followed the discussion?

A lot of those people aren't posting in this thread - I can't really blame them - but are healer players talking about how they don't want complex DPS kits, they want to do more healing. Many of them seem not to want any more healing buttons at all (another coin in the "Ren isn't alone" bucket). None of them are arguing for healing to be braindead. Quite the opposite, they want healing to be the part that is challenging.

I know your opinion there - but novice healers won't be able to clear 4 mans - yet this is what a lot of healer players want. Besides, we can keep 4 mans as braindead as they are now, "but we'll be bored"; you'll get over it, there are other ways of grinding tomes. Regardless, it's clear there's a hunger for healing kits to be what are more interesting, not damage kits, and for encounter design to be changed. A lot of people there are saying what I do all the time, that the solution has to involve encounter design changing and giving people more opportunities to heal.

Feel free to tell them they're wrong, I guess.

.

As for the balance argument:

Who are you arguing against, me or Aravell?

It's not "balancing to the absolute bottom", it's "Can people clear the content right now? For all the people that answer is 'Yes' for, post-change, those people should be able to clear content playing the way they do today. This ensures no one is being 'hurt' and that the change is not only net positive but ONLY positive having not cost or drawbacks to consider or weigh or make allowance for". If at any point that statement becomes untrue, then that means there is actually a cost to the proposed change, and that cost must be addressed.

Again, some people felt bad FOR SCH players who lost their damage kits in ShB. And SMNs in EW. Those changes shouldn't have happened. Doing the opposite here would be just as harmful.

EDIT:

Also, the midcore content isn't gone because it became casual.

The midcore content is gone because it became hardcore (or was removed).

Bozja/Eureka were removed, Extremes became Savages. The midcore content is gone because it was substituted for more hardcore content, not because it became casual content. The way to get midcore content back would actually be to make Extremes easier (specifically, less body checks), probably make the first boss Savage fights easier (and the third harder, to provide a better gradient into the fourth), and to return content like Bozja/Eureka to the game, complete with their varied dungeon difficult and crazy mechanic FATEs from Bozja.

[Zairava]

It really isn't this, though. Have you see this thread: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...mplex-DPS-kits

You posted in it, but have you followed the discussion?

A lot of those people aren't posting in this thread - I can't really blame them - but are healer players talking about how they don't want complex DPS kits, they want to do more healing. Many of them seem not to want any more healing buttons at all (another coin in the "Ren isn't alone" bucket). None of them are arguing for healing to be braindead. Quite the opposite, they want healing to be the part that is challenging.

I know your opinion there - but novice healers won't be able to clear 4 mans - yet this is what a lot of healer players want. Besides, we can keep 4 mans as braindead as they are now, "but we'll be bored"; you'll get over it, there are other ways of grinding tomes. Regardless, it's clear there's a hunger for healing kits to be what are more interesting, not damage kits, and for encounter design to be changed. A lot of people there are saying what I do all the time, that the solution has to involve encounter design changing and giving people more opportunities to heal.

Feel free to tell them they're wrong, I guess.

Care to explain how they won't be able to handle a couple more dps buttons to make the healing downtime there will always inevitably be more entertaining then? How they won't get over that, despite still being able to glare/broil/etc. spam and ignore the rest if they so chose? Even in EX healbots can be carried doing almost no dps at all by a competent group.

It's not "balancing to the absolute bottom", it's "Can people clear the content right now? For all the people that answer is 'Yes' for, post-change, those people should be able to clear content playing the way they do today. This ensures no one is being 'hurt' and that the change is not only net positive but ONLY positive having not cost or drawbacks to consider or weigh or make allowance for". If at any point that statement becomes untrue, then that means there is actually a cost to the proposed change, and that cost must be addressed.

They will still be able to clear normal mode content just fine even if the healing was more demanding like it was in the past (which, ironically, was also the period they handled more dps tools). There's also the matter of the overwhelming amount of time spent using glare/broil/etc even inside the high-end content. I also hold the belief that healers currently have too many tools at their disposal. Especially in groups with two of them, it's honestly a detriment how hard they can trivialize any incoming damage.

I will repeat what I ever will say. Stormblood was the time period they hit that perfect middle ground.

[Aravell]

Snip

You are stretching so far to consider me an elitist, so I will stretch the same distance for you, Sylphie. But since you insist, I will call you by a different label, Mr. I don't want to do more work for maximum performance. I'm only being as mean to you as you are to me, it's only because you so desperately want me to fit your label while completely ignoring that I'm not part of this elite and also made sure everyone would still be able to clear, I did the math, that you deny the factual math is not my problem.

You claim you're not here to call me names, yet you're still pushing the point, I asked you to retract the label because it doesn't fit and you stretch the label to try and fit me anyway, and you wonder why you keep getting into fights with people, but I guess it's fine when you hit people with labels and insult them directly but it's suddenly too much when people do it to you. Don't dish it out if you can't take it, sir.

[A reminder that I'm proposing a 10-20% gap between current ceiling and new ceiling, reminder that 10% is around 600 dps and that 600 dps is barely 1% of the amount required for the dps check of the first floor of savage, reminder that you are arguing against healers doing 1% less to the boss HP bar.]

Also nice goalpost move from "people who are doing the same rotation now won't be able to clear extremes" to "full party of 0 logs can no longer clear extremes". You're just refusing to admit the reality that what you're describing doesn't happen enough to be an actual problem. You are refusing to admit that a good player will balance out a bad player and make it no longer an issue. You are trying to argue that if my proposed changes happen, people will suddenly become bad players and that's frankly ridiculous. But I'm done with this, you won't admit you're wrong while telling me I won't admit I'm wrong, even though I have math to backup my assertions and you have no data except anecdotes.

One more thing, you keep asserting that I don't care for casuals. You actually know nothing. I happen to have a very close casual friend and I made sure he wouldn't be harmed by the changes I propose. Do you have any hardcore friends to ask them if your proposed changes would be liked by them?

EDIT: Funny thought, if there is no clear log of a full team of 0s, then that already immediately defeats your argument that everything has to be tuned to the lowest output, because it currently isn't tuned to the lowest, because a full party at the lowest cannot clear.

[Saraide]

Because the numbers are not the argument, and never have been.

I said this to you before, my concern is not parsing, my concern is clearing the content I clear now playing as I play now, since that's the "accommodation" - that the goal is for people who are bored to not be bored, not to change things for anyone else who isn't.

If the gap is narrow, this works. If the gap is wide, we run into problems. This is an argument of encounter balance, not raw numbers in vacuum.

If encounters are based on the lower end, then things are unchanged for players who continue on as they do today, and I'm fine. The problem is, high end players will complain - we've seen it with Thaleia. With the average high end player party effectively having ~25% of an additional DPSers' worth of damage in their party, bosses will fall over for them, leading to complaints that bosses and enrages are too easy. High end players may never see an actual enrage at that point. That's a pretty big margin for your DPSers to underperform and you still get clears by accident.

On the other hand, if enrages are based on the higher end, then people who play today as they do today will not clear the same content they clear now. This is actively taking something away - hurting them - the thing you say wouldn't happen. So either the high end players would now be bored in a new way (bosses dying too easily) OR players who continue to play as they do today would not clear the content they're clearing now, which means they would be harmed and now you have to address that by...well, giving them more damage. Either by narrowing the gap (hence my position) or by nerfing boss HP/enrages (leading to the upset high end players).

Do you understand now?

"I'm ignoring numbers, facts and stats because they dont suit how I'm feeling and y'all should account for this far more"

[Renathras]

Well if you want a good laugh, he cited Misshapen Chair (who keeps on making amazing videos) however that's not his most recent video, as he just made another good one recently, and one of the lines that got a lot of feedback was "I don’t think putting two more dps buttons on healers will brick the game".

Available at https://youtu.be/RrUZmhtbPQ0?si=09bgOF_eAU0buBJB made just over a week ago. Enjoy!

Oh, right, this:

Did you...watch the whole video?

"I don’t think putting two more dps buttons on healers will brick the game"...is that all you got from it?

You missed the "not all Jobs are for everyone", "not even all roles are for everyone", "I'm probably in the minority, the majority are probably happy with the game", "fight design this expansion is pretty good". His positions don't really mesh well with yours, which rejects that some Jobs (healers with fewer DPS buttons) aren't for you, or even that some roles may not be. That different people like different things, and "just because I don't like it doesn't mean it needs to be removed from the game". "I would put it between Shadowbringers and Stormblood, that's probably the best mix of accessibility, and complexibility. That's not going to be enough for Heavensward boomers, but but it's good enough for me.", "However, even I know that something being difficult and annoying doesn't automatically make it good. But it doesn't automatically make it bad, either. Every change that has simplified the game isn't awful, and every change that makes the game more complicated isn't better. Guess you could say it's a spectrum."

Indeed, his positions sound FAR more like my own...

Care to explain how they won't be able to handle a couple more dps buttons to make the healing downtime there will always inevitably be more entertaining then? How they won't get over that, despite still being able to glare/broil/etc. spam and ignore the rest if they so chose?

They WON'T be able to.

That was the point.

Well, sorta - that wasn't even the argument. The argument HAS NEVER BEEN "someone just hitting glare over and over again". At any point. "Refreshing Dia, using PoM on CD or with party buffs, using Misery under buff windows, using Assize on CD unless small delays can be used to improve healing" is not "someone just hitting glare over and over again" and never has been.

And as I say, there are cases where healers, doing that currently optimal stuff, have barely made it through an enrage because PF be like that sometimes.

It's not hard to explain at all, and I have explained it. Rejecting the explanation doesn't make it cease to exist. And no one can explain something to you when your refuse to listen.

"normal mode content"?

This discussion has never been about "normal mode content", either, now has it?

Have you actually read any of the posts you're replying to?

Alternatively, have you read this thread? -> https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...mplex-DPS-kits

You should.

You are stretching so far to consider me an elitist,

No, I'm not, and I genuinely don't care and will no longer entertain this tangent. You're stretching and trying to derail the topic so you don't have to admit your solution isn't flawless and will harm people, because that would either make you a bad person if you wanted to force it anyway OR require you to make some accommodation to them, and you seem to think if you pretend you're not harming people with your actions, you can have a clean conscience.

I don't care.

And you're just outright making things up now - where did I even mention the word "casuals" in my post? How did I assert, much less KEEP asserting that you don't care for casuals...when I didn't even MENTION casuals?

I KNOW plenty.

And I KNOW you're trying to do everything you can to act offended and change the topic - it's so damned apparent, Aravell - to attack me instead so you don't have to admit the simple truth:

Your plan will harm people. It's not a flawless plan with no downsides.

When people are pinned down but don't want to admit something, they come up with ways to escape admitting them. For example, crying out that they're being treated unfairly and sobbing so that people will take their side so they don't have to admit they're wrong about something.

You are refusing to admit reality so there's no point in bothering with replying to your further. So I don't intend to do so.

.

/sigh

Look, EVERY idea has upsides and downsides. Pros and cons. Benefits and costs. EVERY thing in life does. There are legitimately no exceptions.

In many cases, the costs are low and the benefits are high, making a net positive overall. But that doesn't mean the costs don't exist. Insisting the don't, no matter the numbers you use, don't change that. It's like economists insisting everyone should love the economy because of the stats...while ignoring that food prices are up 20% because "food and gas are volatile, so we don't factor those into inflation", when those are the two things no family can live without directly (food) or indirectly (gas to drive to work, and even people that use mass transport, higher gas means higher shipping costs means food and such is more expensive).

This is why you have to talk to and listen to people who would be affected, because that tells you what you don't see, and why you have to remember that there are costs as well as benefits to ideas.

My idea has costs, too. Say we have WHM carry on much as it is now (possibly with Aero 3 added), make AST much more of a buffer, give SCH DoTs, and make SGE a Disc Priest/Chloromancer...

...some people will be upset. Yeah, the people that want WHM aesthetics but a complex DPS kit, but others, too. Non-ASTs that want more support skills, non SCH's that want more DoTs, SGEs that love how it plays right now and would hate being a Disc Priest. So there are clear costs. Why do I still promote it?

1) Because everything has costs, there IS no escaping that...but plans CAN have mitigating factors.

2) The mitigating factor here is that people who like different playstyles will have some options. If you like current SGE, you might like SCH + 1 DoT and Bane. If you like current healers in general, you would have WHM. If you don't like current healers because you want to do more DPS, you'd have SCH and SGE. If you don't like current healers and want to be a bufing party supporter, you'd have AST. While not everyone would be happy, most people would be able to get a "second best" out of the deal. It's like a runoff election where your favorite candidate didn't make it, but you can vote for your second choice and they win, giving you something you can still be content with.

Does that make it perfect?

NO!

Because there IS no perfect.

But it should result in a net good, and something where the people harmed are MOSTLY the people being harmed worse now (those who want DPS kits or more support complexity), meaning they'd still likely be better off since they'd at least have SOMEthing that appeals to them, and the people who might like one of the ones as they are now that are being changed, but they'd still have a safe haven in whichever ones we left alone AND your model would change them, too (e.g. SGEs that like current SGE), so my model is still less bad for them.

It covers the most people by giving them something they can live with and enjoy, and whichever people are harmed under it are either harmed more under the current system OR would be harmed more under your proposal/favored system.

No, it's not perfect.

It can't be.

But at least it can be net positive and be acceptable to most people.

That's all anyone can hope for, and what makes a good compromise worth fighting for.

"I'm ignoring numbers, facts and stats because they dont suit how I'm feeling and y'all should account for this far more"

And THIS is how you define trolling/heckling. I think I may just put you both on ignore, you honestly aren't worth the time anymore.


.

The true irony is, for all the hell I get from all of you guys collectively - especially the hecklers - I'm literally arguing for something to benefit you where the current system has failed you. You're just collectively unwilling to see it because you want all the marbles and don't understand you likely aren't going to get them no matter what and it would harm tons of people if you did.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I almost stood up and clapped when he said he can't stand people who don't want to improve. Preach.

A bit late on this. Just got around to watching it.

Never find it not funny when they used to preach the 'shut up about 3% dps variance, your reward is not to be bored.' made by Misshapen Chairs from his old video.

I sure love getting told what is engaging and what is not by some player who's clearly not engaging for at least 25% average duration within casual content. Surely they know what is the actual engaging experience? Lmao.

[Saraide]

Lmao he still ignores any and all arguments. This thread has always also been about normal modes. That's why we argue for a few more dps buttons to solve the downtime problem. And you again claim the illogical point that it will prevent you from clearing your ex trials in pf. It wont, you've been told why. You've been shown numbers why. You ignore them because they dont suit your argument so you just make it again. All while claiming it's everyone else who lost grip on reality. Surely everyone is out to get you specifically because we are all toxic elitists., right?? Buddy the only one harassing you was mister alt troll, everyone else just treats you like how you treat them.

[Zairava]

They WON'T be able to.

That was the point.

Well, sorta - that wasn't even the argument. The argument HAS NEVER BEEN "someone just hitting glare over and over again". At any point. "Refreshing Dia, using PoM on CD or with party buffs, using Misery under buff windows, using Assize on CD unless small delays can be used to improve healing" is not "someone just hitting glare over and over again" and never has been.

And as I say, there are cases where healers, doing that currently optimal stuff, have barely made it through an enrage because PF be like that sometimes.

It's not hard to explain at all, and I have explained it. Rejecting the explanation doesn't make it cease to exist. And no one can explain something to you when your refuse to listen.

Bro, my dude.

The amount of dps needed to meet enrage is down to balancing and whether or not too many people made mistakes and died. Not because joe blow decided to not press Dia at exactly the 5 minute and 43 second mark to get .017% more dps.

Assize is on a 40 second cooldown and is an oGCD, the DoT is 30s long and you only need to worry about refreshing it outside that if you're going for fractional increase in dps. If these are your ideas of "shaking up the boredom of having one single GCD spellcast to use ad nauseam" then that is as barebones as barebones gets.

For someone who repeatedly babbles on how "people aren't listening" you sure didn't listen to when I said I'm a below average healer who is bored by how they are currently structured and would like to be more engaged.

"normal mode content"?

This discussion has never been about "normal mode content", either, now has it?

Have you actually read any of the posts you're replying to?

Yes, have you?

Care to explain how they won't be able to handle a couple more dps buttons to make the healing downtime there will always inevitably be more entertaining then? How they won't get over that, despite still being able to glare/broil/etc. spam and ignore the rest if they so chose? Even in EX healbots can be carried doing almost no dps at all by a competent group.

They will still be able to clear normal mode content just fine even if the healing was more demanding like it was in the past (which, ironically, was also the period they handled more dps tools). There's also the matter of the overwhelming amount of time spent using glare/broil/etc even inside the high-end content.

Regardless, it doesn't discredit what I'm saying.

That being said, let's take normal mode out of the equation.

The only players interacting with the amount of dps to matter are the players already doing savage and above content, of which are the players most interested in optimization the everliving piss out of their job or role. So why in the hell would it matter for the players that don't? And outside of week 1 and 2 progression, it begins getting easier to clear these dps checks due to power creep, of which healer dps can be carried.

Alternatively, have you read this thread? -> https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...mplex-DPS-kits

You should.

Yes, and you should read my reply to it where I said I don't think either need to be overly complicated.