How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Renathras]

Uh huh, doesn't work according to who?

According to the position of "If you can clear content now, you can clear that same level/type of content post-change playing your rotation exactly as you play it right now".

Why are your anecdotes any more important than anyone else's?

"more important"?

They're proof that the change would cause harm.

Honestly, all you have to do right now is admit "What I, Aravell, want would harm some players, I agree. I think it's worth it, though, for <insert reasons>." The issue I have with you is the adamant rejection of reality. You don't want to admit your proposal WOULD hurt people, and it would. You can try to explain it away, but it absolutely would, and my examples are the proof of it. That's why they're relevant.

If someone proposes a theory to explain something, and others find even a single case where it doesn't hold, then that cannot be the correct model. It didn't take millions of examples opposing Newtonian Mechanics to prove it was wrong, it only took one.

As to the latter:

You say you should be "rewarded for doing more work", which REQUIRES that other people do worse than you who are not. That is your position, is it not? That is a REQUIREMENT of the idea of having a high skill ceiling vs skill floor gap in performance - 20%, wasn't it? Further, people WOULDN'T be clearing content. That's what I've told you and you just ignore it.

"skill ceiling should be higher and mastery should be rewarded (with a 20% performance boost)" IS saying "other people who do not do this should do worse than me, and if it is sufficient to prevent clearing content, then they should not clear content".

The difference is, I fill all my dead GCDs with damage spells, meaning I'm not a Sylphie by definition - "I won't do any damage to anything, I only heal". On the other hand, an elitist is generally defined as one who believes that other people who do not do what they do should not perform at their level, they should be rewarded with performance and clears and gear and so on exclusive to people who perform at their level. The only difference between you and a hyper-elitist is they don't want anyone to even clear the content whereas your position is you think people can still clear (Extremes) with an all gray party, despite that being factually untrue. Come to think of it, are there any cases of at-level Extremes being cleared by parties where every member has a 0? Probably not. However, you do hold the position when it comes to "week 1 savage and ultimates".

So you actually DO meet the definition based on your stated positions. You can lie about me, but I objectively do not meet the definition of Sylphie, so that makes it a lie and an insult. You do meet the definition of elitist within tolerable limits, with the only distinction being you refuse to admit the reality of what your changes would do.

I'm not here to call you names anyway, so I'm not going to persist in this tangential stupidity, only say this:

You are refusing to admit reality. The reality is, your changes WOULD hurt people unless content was balanced around the bottom end of the spectrum we're talking about (not we're not talking Cure spammers or even Glare spammers; we're talking people who use Glare, Dia, Misery, Assize, and PoM in the way that is optimal today; and people that don't even do that perfectly can still get clears, so it would actually need to be balanced LOWER than this to not impact anyone), which accounts for an ~25% of a DPSer increase in overall party damage for a party with 2 healers operating optimally under the proposed changes, making high end players able to trivially clear content.

Admit it, or don't, I don't care. But your plan WOULD hurt people OR leave high end players bored with bosses falling over like tissue paper, neither of which is good for the game.

I find really funny that discussion arises for healers when asked to put a fraction of the effort that tanks and dps are required to clear any content with enrage.

No, that's not why "discussion arises". It's when people who want engaging HEALING content where they HEAL people are told "Sorry, best I can do is more damage buttons making you a SMN-lite".

This isn't about "making it so that others can clear content but I can", it's about making it more fun for everyone.

I mean, that's what I've proposed - something that makes it more fun for (nearly) everyone.

The reason I put in "(nearly)" is because no system makes it fun for EVERYone. Giving all the healers more complex DPS kits would NOT make it more fun for everyone. It would make it more fun for people that want more complex DPS kits. It wouldn't make it more fun for people that want more challenging healing. It wouldn't make it more fun for people that are ambivalent. Overstating things like this is part of the problem.

On the other hand, the 4 Healers Model WOULD make it more fun for everyone other than the people who don't want people who don't play like them to stand even with them on the field of battle, or who want to force everyone to play their way, or the people that might like a SPECIFIC healer's aesthetic but not their playstyle (but this happens no matter what if you make their kits different from each other, and it's happening right now anyway, so that's an acceptable loss since there's literally no way TO avoid it).

...but it's the closest idea to one that DOES make everyone happy and make it more fun for everyone.

On the other hand, "more dps complexity" DOES NOT make it more fun for EVERYone. It ONLY makes it more fun for the people that want a more complex DPS kit.

The argument IS NEVER "design healing around the lowest common denominator of players". That's the lie.

The argument IS "design healing for people that enjoy HEALING and want to do more of it, and split the healer kits so that there is something for those who want more DPS buttons (like SB SCH) and for those who do not (like EW WHM)". THAT is the discussion. It's not about "infantilizing" things. It's about having things for different people who enjoy different things.

That's all it's ever about, despite people always trying to make it about "making it dumb where everyone hates it vs making it awesome where everyone loves it", which is a lie on both ends; no one's arguing to make healing where you have only one button (not "one damage button", I mean ONLY one button or ANYTHING close to that), nor is the other end making it fun for everyone/where everyone loves it; it's making it where people that specifically want more DPS buttons love it and screw everyone else.

.

And I think that's it for me for now. o7

[Aravell]

Snip

You are stretching so far to consider me an elitist, so I will stretch the same distance for you, Sylphie. But since you insist, I will call you by a different label, Mr. I don't want to do more work for maximum performance. I'm only being as mean to you as you are to me, it's only because you so desperately want me to fit your label while completely ignoring that I'm not part of this elite and also made sure everyone would still be able to clear, I did the math, that you deny the factual math is not my problem.

You claim you're not here to call me names, yet you're still pushing the point, I asked you to retract the label because it doesn't fit and you stretch the label to try and fit me anyway, and you wonder why you keep getting into fights with people, but I guess it's fine when you hit people with labels and insult them directly but it's suddenly too much when people do it to you. Don't dish it out if you can't take it, sir.

[A reminder that I'm proposing a 10-20% gap between current ceiling and new ceiling, reminder that 10% is around 600 dps and that 600 dps is barely 1% of the amount required for the dps check of the first floor of savage, reminder that you are arguing against healers doing 1% less to the boss HP bar.]

Also nice goalpost move from "people who are doing the same rotation now won't be able to clear extremes" to "full party of 0 logs can no longer clear extremes". You're just refusing to admit the reality that what you're describing doesn't happen enough to be an actual problem. You are refusing to admit that a good player will balance out a bad player and make it no longer an issue. You are trying to argue that if my proposed changes happen, people will suddenly become bad players and that's frankly ridiculous. But I'm done with this, you won't admit you're wrong while telling me I won't admit I'm wrong, even though I have math to backup my assertions and you have no data except anecdotes.

One more thing, you keep asserting that I don't care for casuals. You actually know nothing. I happen to have a very close casual friend and I made sure he wouldn't be harmed by the changes I propose. Do you have any hardcore friends to ask them if your proposed changes would be liked by them?

EDIT: Funny thought, if there is no clear log of a full team of 0s, then that already immediately defeats your argument that everything has to be tuned to the lowest output, because it currently isn't tuned to the lowest, because a full party at the lowest cannot clear.