How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Aravell]

Well if you want a good laugh, he cited Misshapen Chair (who keeps on making amazing videos) however that's not his most recent video, as he just made another good one recently, and one of the lines that got a lot of feedback was "I don’t think putting two more dps buttons on healers will brick the game".

Available at https://youtu.be/RrUZmhtbPQ0?si=09bgOF_eAU0buBJB made just over a week ago. Enjoy!

So, thanks for the video, I just watched it, and I can't help but notice that he's saying the same thing I'm saying "Mastery should be rewarded and people who refuse to improve should not be rewarded with a free win". I don't get why that's such a controversial statement, that's just what games are meant to be.

[Renathras]

I also greatly disliked cleric stance. >...<;;
I don't mind that others liked it, though from my post definitely you could see even the general concept I'd think should have been 'smoothed'...

Oh yeah, I agree. It should be possible to build a Job design round using such a mechanic. It doesn't need to be something on every healer, but a healer Job having some mechanic of that nature, where it was more thought out and explicitly designed around, could very much work. I'm really big on "Different people like different things, and we have more than one Healer Job, so we should make different ones represent/have different playstyles such that everyone, of most any taste, can find at least one that appeals to them and they can enjoy playing". I would 100% support a healer Job designed around and having a Cleric Stance mechanic since some people want that. Long as it's not all of them, I don't see the issue with it.

And yeah, personally, I hate Moon Flute. Conversely, I like Diamondback (sorta like how I like Passage of Arms). Everyone has different tastes. I'd say the beauty of BLU is you can pick what you want to bring...but Diamondback is binary, you either MUST have (and use) it, or you don't need it. So that one isn't really optional in a somewhat general sense... "emotionally pressured into using them", that's a pretty good description. I feel that's the thing that Jobs/roles shouldn't do to people.

Generally I would like to see jobs attempt to meet certain people in the place they enjoy (while not being too balance different). Ideally not changing too much once establishing a crowd too (can revamp jobs but it would be unfortunate to remove a playstyle from the game entirely).
...
Just shifts that make the end results be similar but, the action to action more focused on two types of healers. The blood drenched healers and the team players who picked healer because they wanted to be, in the cool way, the team's cheerleader.

I think I pretty much agree with this 100%.

We've seen what happens when playstyles are removed (e.g. SMN). The game is pretty much always worse for it. Even if they're diminished (fewer Jobs having such playstyles), as long as people enjoy that, it shouldn't be removed. And yeah, win some lose some. I think the trick is design that lets everyone win some and doesn't have anyone losing all.

If that's all you got from what I'm saying, then I'm starting to suspect that you're misreading me on purpose to stir things up, or you're a troll. But either way, you're not worth engaging with anymore, other people have provided me with better discussion than you.

I feel this way after reading every post of yours...

No, I don't have this "weird twisted concept". When someone says they want to do 10-20% more damage than I do by changing not only my Job but entire role out from under me and that I should not complain because they say so, I do take that kind of badly, yes. The only reason I say you're an elitist is because of that part.

From my original design post...

Didn't I...just praise you for that?

Aside: There's no "playing incorrectly to prove a point". It's "playing correctly under the current system" vs "playing that same way under your proposed changes". Imagine if every DPS was given Vermedica and expected to press it every 10 sec and some DPSer refused saying "I picked this role because I want to DPS and juggle a complex DPS rotation, not to be a healbot" and someone said "oh, you can play the same way, you'll just be playing incorrectly to prove a point". That obviously wouldn't be taken well.

.

3) I think my big thing with this is "Blessing of the Elements" could just be Presence of Mind. See PLD. One of the big complaints right now is "Why do we need two separate buttons for Fight or Flight and Requiescat?" I feel like BoE + PoM would largely end up in a similar boat. And I've already told you my thoughts on Water/Banish vs Assize.

5) I somewhat agree. Honestly, there are just a few things from your design I think changing would make it entirely palatable to me. /shrug Granted, I also think just readding Aero 3 to WHM would work, so...

No, you don’t understand. Doing 2% more damage than people who refuse to improve isn’t fair. There can’t be any damage variance because I might have trouble clearing an extreme /s. Aravell is right, it’s not worth engaging with him.

Strange, where did I complain about 2%?

I complained about 10% and 20%.

Or did you mean when I was quoting someone pointing out that complaining about 2% is the equivalent of complaining about crit variance?

I'm just laughing over how much of a stretch it is to get "I am an evil elitist who wants to lord it over everyone else" from my statement of "Skill ceiling should be higher and mastery should be rewarded"...

...rewarded with 1/5th extra output, equivalent to adding a quarter of another DPSer to the party.

Hence why I exhorted you to remember, this argument is over you saying it has to be 10-20% instead of 1-2%. Something I'm sure you didn't bother reading.

Also, where did I say you were evil?

I said it would be a jerk thing to do, but I didn't call it evil.

[Aravell]

...

I'm not going to pull out numbers that you don't intend to read again. I will just say that you took a part of my argument, cut it away, made a caricature out of it, then attacked me for being that caricature that you made. All of which are things that you complain about other people doing to you.

But thanks for the laugh when you called me an elitist, I'm a gray parsing elitist, what a world we live in, that's just too funny.

Also, do you actually know what "elitist" means? Because it's very funny you called me that when not a single thing I said relates to elitism.

[OgruMogru]

King crab sitting in his bucket snipping at the ankles of all who dare to dream of breaching the rim.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

No, you don’t understand. Doing 2% more damage than people who refuse to improve isn’t fair. There can’t be any damage variance because I might have trouble clearing an extreme /s. Aravell is right, it’s not worth engaging with him.

Could only guess from the quote snippets, but it has certainly took you long enough. Theirs is literally the same energy as this post describing.

There is no common ground.

[Lailani_Fey]

But, as mentioned by others, think about what that above kit would mean in practice. You can't clear TEA J-Waves with that kit. [...]

Personally I did not like the healer design in WoW very much, especially the rule that you would have to stand around doing nothing for 5 seconds until your MP starts regenerating was a killjoy.
Regardless, here's another idea: Similarly to PvP, create designated kits for High-End content.
The problem of the 9? years of baggage this game has, limits future design choices to "more of the same" if you do not want to break anything. More of the same has been the answer for so long, it has become the expectation. It's a dead, uninnovative end from what I have seen in ShB and EW.

One alternative is to break things and fix them afterwards. The other is to create a new environment separate from the previous.
The first seems to be not what Square usually does, at least the fixing part. Just have a look at how T7S is barely manageable with today's toolkits. Not really broken but neglected is all the synced content that just gets easier (dps-wise) by every expansion's power swell.

A seperate toolkit for high-end content could be a solution. Maybe it could be stable per expansion as to keep balancing over the course of the years.

[Saraide]

Personally I did not like the healer design in WoW very much, especially the rule that you would have to stand around doing nothing for 5 seconds until your MP starts regenerating was a killjoy.
Regardless, here's another idea: Similarly to PvP, create designated kits for High-End content.
The problem of the 9? years of baggage this game has, limits future design choices to "more of the same" if you do not want to break anything. More of the same has been the answer for so long, it has become the expectation. It's a dead, uninnovative end from what I have seen in ShB and EW.

One alternative is to break things and fix them afterwards. The other is to create a new environment separate from the previous.
The first seems to be not what Square usually does, at least the fixing part. Just have a look at how T7S is barely manageable with today's toolkits. Not really broken but neglected is all the synced content that just gets easier (dps-wise) by every expansion's power swell.

A seperate toolkit for high-end content could be a solution. Maybe it could be stable per expansion as to keep balancing over the course of the years.

This would make it so much more difficult to make the leap into raiding for new players. PVP needs different actions because it's fundamentally a different game.

[TheDustyOne]

Personally I did not like the healer design in WoW very much, especially the rule that you would have to stand around doing nothing for 5 seconds until your MP starts regenerating was a killjoy.
Regardless, here's another idea: Similarly to PvP, create designated kits for High-End content.
The problem of the 9? years of baggage this game has, limits future design choices to "more of the same" if you do not want to break anything. More of the same has been the answer for so long, it has become the expectation. It's a dead, uninnovative end from what I have seen in ShB and EW.

One alternative is to break things and fix them afterwards. The other is to create a new environment separate from the previous.
The first seems to be not what Square usually does, at least the fixing part. Just have a look at how T7S is barely manageable with today's toolkits. Not really broken but neglected is all the synced content that just gets easier (dps-wise) by every expansion's power swell.

A seperate toolkit for high-end content could be a solution. Maybe it could be stable per expansion as to keep balancing over the course of the years.

I'll be brutally honest; a separate toolkit for high-end PvE and casual PvE is a horrible idea, it only further segregates and separates the two playerbases. A new player that wants to get into raiding now has to throw out 90 levels worth of job knowledge because raiding uses a different skillset, while someone who does lots of raiding suddenly gets disoriented just from doing MSQ and roulettes. It's one thing for some content to offer unique skills, Eureka with Logos Actions and Bozja with Lost Actions come to mind, but they don't throw out the current job kit and only add to it.

PvP and PvE is separate because how you interact is fundamentally different. A boss following a script and at most using a random number to decide how it might do a mechanic is very, very different from a thinking opponent who can react dynamically, and as such their movesets need to be designed and balanced differently.

[Aravell]

Honestly, while a complete separation of kits for both regular PvE and high-end PvE is very likely a disaster, there could be merit in having small traits for existing abilities that you can choose from and take into high-end content. That could potentially diversify the kits for people into high-end raiding. Sure, people will very quickly pick out the best possible build for the DPS jobs, but for healers in particular, there could be more interesting stuff to explore there.

[AmiableApkallu]

Regardless, here's another idea: Similarly to PvP, create designated kits for High-End content.

An idea I once had was that content from expansion X should always be done using the actions and traits (and potencies etc. etc) as they existed when expansion X @ the .55 patch was current. It would completely solve the problem of, "WhAt AbOuT oLdEr, ExIsTiNg CoNtEnT!?"

Unfortunately, the mental space required to hold that many kits in your mind while you level sync all over the place in daily roulettes, the nightmare of managing that many hotbar layouts, and so on renders the idea dead on arrival.