How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Renathras]

Lmao he still ignores any and all arguments. This thread has always also been about normal modes.

Yes, it's bait.
Yes Saraide is heckling, but I do want to answer this:

Do you read posts before you reply to them?

You say I'm ignoring numbers. What numbers was I ignoring? Averell talking about DPS numbers related to boss health...
...
...
...
...in Savage.

And me talking about boss health and clears...
...
...
...in Extremes.

Savage and Extreme are not normal modes.
Not normal modes.

And no, people don't. But if I try to defend myself you'll just use it for yet more attacks, so I won't bother.

EDIT:

Bro, my dude.

Tell Saraide. She's the one saying it's about normal content.

In any case:

1) I agree it's about balance - more specifically, tuning. That's why I've been talking about...just that very thing.

2) I heard you say you're below average and bored. Understand you aren't everyone. ALSO understand my own proposal is to give SCH back its damage rotation and kit from SB, AST its Cars from back then, and probably let SGE have a full blown DPS kit. Does none of that sound like it would address your needs as a non-healer?

3) "Yes, have you?" Yes, clearly. "EX healbots" - so Extremes, not normal modes? "high-end content" so...Savages and Ultimates, not normal modes? I'm not attempting to discredit you, I'm saying there's a solution that addresses this that doesn't suck for people that don't want more DPS buttons.

4) "The only players interacting with the amount of dps to matter are the players already doing savage and above content"; no...Extremes also have enrages. So at best, Extremes and up. Also stuff like Baldession and Delubrium. And that's ignoring what anyone else wants, where "anyone else" makes up something like 60% of the playerbase, quite a few to write off wholesale. Anyway, Ultimates are where you get the people trying to optimize everything. But we weren't talking about optimization. We were talking about the GAP between fully optimized and not, where the NOT still needs to be able to clear content like Extremes.

5) Good, but did you read other people's posts in that thread? That's more what I was getting at. There are other things to do - and that people want - aside from more damage buttons.

[Aravell]

I think I may just put you both on ignore, you honestly aren't worth the time anymore.

Since you're going to continue labeling me and attacking me directly and justifying that you have the right to do so while complaining when others do it to you, good, put me on ignore and stop replying to me, then I won't have to deal with your ignorance. Then we'll both be happy.

[Renathras]

Since you're going to continue labeling me and attacking me directly and justifying that you have the right to do so while complaining when others do it to you, good, put me on ignore and stop replying to me, then I won't have to deal with your ignorance. Then we'll both be happy.

No, I'm not labeling you and I'm not attacking you directly.

But I will be ignoring you acting like this.

You have been reasonable in the past, perhaps in the future you will be so again. I look forward to that day. Until then.

[OgruMogru]

There's a difference between people with a general lack of skill/confidence [understandable] and people that wilfully refuse to interface with the games systems. I suppose the crux is: I don't care if bad, sloppy and indolent players are alienated by the proposed changes, their conduct in game is already alienating and frustrating because they refuse to put in the effort in team content, and it stings even more because a lot of players have experience from a time before this was the case. Catering the game towards these types of players helps no one, especially not new players or people looking to improve. It doesn't do anything but save the egos of a few people that are already too selfish to care about anyone else - they can't contribute and they can't even help or teach new people because they don't know how to.

[Mecia]

The argument IS "design healing for people that enjoy HEALING and want to do more of it''

So are we upping incoming damage then? Are we making healing more complex? How do you design more interesting healing without making it harder? There are healers who already struggle with current kits, screw them over then?

Theres just so many less points of failure in a couple more damage buttons than more involved healing.

it's making it where people that specifically want more DPS buttons love it and screw everyone else.

Pot calling the kettle black, screw all the ones who quit SHB onwards.

[Renathras]

So are we upping incoming damage then? Are we making healing more complex? How do you design more interesting healing without making it harder? There are healers who already struggle with current kits, screw them over then?

Yes, please!

Sorry, but you can't say "screw over HEALER players that can't handle MORE HEALING"...while promoting more damage complexity for those same healers. That makes no sense. They can't manage to spam Medica 2 and you're telling them to juggle 3 DoTs, a gauge, two resources, a couple DPS oGCDs, and a DPS CD buff?

"But they don't HAVE to" and they don't have to do anything but press Medica 2 over and over to handle the more healing. Checkmate.

Pot calling the kettle black, screw all the ones who quit SHB onwards.

/sigh

I hate it when new people join the conversation coming in swinging but haven't read anything. If you're going to attack someone, make sure you at least know their positions:

The argument IS "design healing for people that enjoy HEALING and want to do more of it, and split the healer kits so that there is something for those who want more DPS buttons (like SB SCH) and for those who do not (like EW WHM)".

Again, some people felt bad FOR SCH players who lost their damage kits in ShB. And SMNs in EW. Those changes shouldn't have happened. Doing the opposite here would be just as harmful.

SOOOOMEwhat. SB WHM was horrible design. See this thread if you're curious: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ld-be-combined...

...studiously avoided because it kind of exposes the lie that SB was peak healer design, as it wasn't for WHM specifically. EW WHM + Aero 3 would be better design than SB WHM.

Now, if we were talking SCH and AST SB designs? That I more or less agree with, though there are some post-SB things worth keeping, like Expedience and Microcosmos.

...but, that doesn't matter in the sense I believe that people DID like it, and thus at the very least that playstyle should have been preserved, even if it was through a new Job being added (e.g. Green Mage DoT mage maybe...?). Because I genuinely believe the game can accommodate all types of players and we can all enjoy this shared space together, but that requires Jobs being different in play and appealing to those different types of players.
...
That is, I'm not a fan of...have you ever read the Sword of Truth/Legend of the Seaker books?

In it, the system of magic has two halves, positive magic and negative. The simplest example was given in the book by the wizard making his beard grow longer (adding to/positive magic). He then started to shave and was asked why he didn't just make it grow shorter, and he replied that powerful as he is, he can only use positive magic (adding to), he can't use negative magic (taking away from).

I think Job design, evolution, and addition over time in a game should always abide by the principle of positive magic: It should always add to what was before, not take away.

Hell, if we had that today, we could have EW WHM and SB SCH coexisting side by side and this entire thread would probably not exist.

It's why I say grabbing a bunch of stuff that was removed from SCH in ShB and readding it to the kit would be nice, but taking all three healers and shoving them into SB kits would not. The latter is just another form of negative magic - taking away without replacing - just like changing SMN without adding Green Mage did.

That was...just within the last two pages.

My longstanding position has been to give SCH back its SB damage kit. I've held that position for years now, and I DID care when people who liked it were harmed in ShB.

.

So where is this pot calling the kettle black?

IF NOTHING ELSE AT ALL, I've been insanely consistent on this one point:

Do not take things from people.
If you have to take A Job from people, give them another to fill the void, don't leave them no options.
If you took from people, give it back.

Where is this pot calling the kettle black saying screw people who quit? I'm the one person consistently saying to give them back what they lost. LITERALLY the only exception I make is SB WHM, because SB WHM absolutely sucked in every way, which is why no one ever actually asks for it back, they just want Aero 3 and an 18 sec duration for Dia.

[SGE is more a more nuanced topic since it's only ever been this way and changing it now would violate the principle of not taking something away, though at the same time, it was billed as healing by doing damage and people seem to want another DPS action or three on it. So that one's a tougher call.]

In any case, you should ...well, never mind. Just please read the above. I've always said that SCH and AST should get back what was taken from them. There is no hypocrisy here on that point.

[Saraide]

Just confidently incorrect as always. Making healing more difficult would put strain on people who just spam medica 2 over and over. Giving them 2 extra dots or whatever wont. Normal modes dont have enrages, ex trial enrages are always the dps' fault. Meanwhile heal checks exist in all content. They are very easy in normal mode for a reason.

[Mecia]

Yes, please!

So the same thing will happen as with your hyperbole position on damage kits.
''Checkmate''

So where is this pot calling the kettle black?

it's making it where people that specifically want more DPS buttons love it and screw everyone else.

Figure it out.

Do not take things from people.
If you have to take A Job from people, give them another to fill the void, don't leave them no options.
If you took from people, give it back.

Dont take X job from me.
Make an extra job for every job you took. (Chad take honestly)
Actually just give X job back to me.

???????

[Thurmnmurmn]

The problem is he does in that video what you guys do: Only seems to think there's one kind of improvement - improving your DPS rotation.

People wanting to improve something else; what are they?

It's called having a priority list. How do you defeat a boss? Bringing his hp to zero. How do you do that? By damaging it.
The very first priority is learning the mechanics of a fight so you don't die. Why do you not want to die? So you don't get weakness and lower your damage.
Second should very well be damaging. If you struggle with those 2 things and can't clear, focusing on improving something else is focusing on the wrong thing at that time.

Now in regards to your whole "Aravell is an elitist!" comments.
Are you the type of person who thinks equal opportunity = equal results? If yes, that's dumb and you're dumb.
Expecting to do more damage than someone who isn't putting in the same effort as you when you're both using the same kit doesn't make you an elitist. It's reality.

It still baffles me the gymnastics you try to pull off to make it seem like everyone is wrong and you're the only one right who address 's everyone (even though many people have disagreed with you).
I want to ask you this, who else on these forums do you see who gathers as much hate as you? Titanmen and massive trolls maybe. But who engages in "good faith discussions" as you call them and still gets even slightly close to as much hate as you?
Even people who have never gotten into arguments with you are sick of how you act (you even said Aravell has had good discussions with you in the past).
The common factor in all your arguments is YOU. Take a good look in the mirror mate, you got the answer to a lot of your problems there.

[SargeTheSeagull]

I want to ask you this, who else on these forums do you see who gathers as much hate as you? Titanmen and massive trolls maybe. But who engages in "good faith discussions" as you call them and still gets even slightly close to as much hate as you?
Even people who have never gotten into arguments with you are sick of how you act (you even said Aravell has had good discussions with you in the past).
The common factor in all your arguments is YOU. Take a good look in the mirror mate, you got the answer to a lot of your problems there.

Ren and Titanman and those types (especially the people who get weirdly political) are why the forums are such a meme. The average thread on here is actually full of solid discussions, even this one is full of people actually talking about the game. Then one of the usual suspects shows up, says something absurdly stupid, and the thread unwinds into a bunch of people arguing over semantics.