How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[AmiableApkallu]

As I've pointed out, I've been party to enrages that barely were cleared - through me having done damage. Had my damage been 10-20% lower, they would have failed.

Technically true, but that doesn't mean your personal DPS was the one deciding factor, or the most important deciding factor. Anyone else doing 10-20% less damage would have also led to a wipe.

In an Endwalker extreme not at min ilvl, if your party is seeing enrage, the things to improve upon, in order of priority, are:

1. Reduce the number of deaths.

2. Worry about DPS rotations and execution.

3. Worry about tank rotations and execution.

4. Worry about healer rotations and execution.

I'll use Zeromus EX as an example. The enrage is at approximately 11min5sec.

Here's a group that cleared in 10min1sec, at an average rate of 67.4k. From this, we can work out that to meet the enrage, you need an average rate of 60.9k DPS to clear. So, they're 6.5k DPS above the minimum. Everything else remaining the same, one of their healers could have literally done zero DPS and they would have still cleared. And that's not because the DPS and Tanks are absolute beasts that are carrying the group's damage. As of this writing, the fastest clear is 7min27sec at 90.3k DPS, a 34% improvement.

Here's a group that cleared at 11min1sec, a couple GCDs before the enrage. For 68% of the fight, at least one party member had a Weakness debuff.

I think it's fair to say that people simply not dying lots is probably enough for most groups to clear comfortably, and that's the first thing to work on before anyone starts blaming a healer for doing only 80% of their maximum output.

[Deceptus]

I think it's fair to say that people simply not dying lots is probably enough for most groups to clear comfortably, and that's the first thing to work on before anyone starts blaming a healer for doing only 80% of their maximum output.

The problem is, that CBU3's idea of difficulty is artificial. It's one shot mechanics.

[KenZentra]

The problem is, that CBU3's idea of difficulty is artificial. It's one shot mechanics.

This is correct. Body checks everywhere, if one person fails a mechanic making everyone die, I hate these so much along side most raid-wide damage is just "This does just so much damage" making them HP checks, and less about healing, imo. Its another problem that makes healing more about meeting HP checks than doing any consistent healing and because there is no need for constant healing, Healers tend to spend their time DPSing. Cause most times during a raid, you are either at full hp, nearly dead (from a raid wide), or dead.

[IDontPetLalas]

This is correct. Body checks everywhere, if one person fails a mechanic making everyone die, I hate these so much along side most raid-wide damage is just "This does just so much damage" making them HP checks, and less about healing, imo. Its another problem that makes healing more about meeting HP checks than doing any consistent healing and because there is no need for constant healing, Healers tend to spend their time DPSing. Cause most times during a raid, you are either at full hp, nearly dead (from a raid wide), or dead.

As Forsaken mentioned, and I agree Barbariccia has some really fun moments where there are some small intense, frequent healing periods, and I do agree that body checks cause more frustration to everyone involved than posing any challenges to healers. I have seen some people request that raidwide frequency be increased, and i agree that could also be a good compromise. However- I definitely wouldn't want to see this game turned into one where constant healing is required, that should be part of the skill- knowing when to heal and when to DPS.

[KenZentra]

As Forsaken mentioned, and I agree Barbariccia has some really fun moments where there are some small intense, frequent healing periods, and I do agree that body checks cause more frustration to everyone involved than posing any challenges to healers. I have seen some people request that raidwide frequency be increased, and i agree that could also be a good compromise. However- I definitely wouldn't want to see this game turned into one where constant healing is required, that should be part of the skill- knowing when to heal and when to DPS.

Thats a shame, because thats what i would like to see healing become, as of right now its just hitting 1 DPS button and a DoT every 30 seconds, with breaks of healing in between. The extra DPS you get as a healer is your reward for efficiently healing the party and squeezing out some extra DPS before going back to healing. Which would be just as you say, knowing when to heal and when to DPS.

[Raikai]

Thats a shame, because thats what i would like to see healing become, as of right now its just hitting 1 DPS button and a DoT every 30 seconds, with breaks of healing in between. The extra DPS you get as a healer is your reward for efficiently healing the party and squeezing out some extra DPS before going back to healing. Which would be just as you say, knowing when to heal and when to DPS.

Me too, to be honest. The "act of healing" feels unrewarding for me as a healer because the frequency you do that is not a lot... But then what's left is a bland dps mode. Healer gets the worst of both worlds (dps and healing).

I also find 'triage healing' fun in other games, but in XIV that is basically whenever someone fails a mechanic, even tanks don't require intensive healing outside of specific spots.

[KenZentra]

Me too, to be honest. The "act of healing" feels unrewarding for me as a healer because the frequency you do that is not a lot... But then what's left is a bland dps mode. Healer gets the worst of both worlds (dps and healing).

I also find 'triage healing' fun in other games, but in XIV that is basically whenever someone fails a mechanic, even tanks don't require intensive healing outside of specific spots.

I find when I heal in FFXIV, that healing is just a role that makes sure it has an ability to solve an HP Check from the boss. Sorta how if a tank doesnt have an answer to a tankbuster, they straight up just die, they need to have a form of mitigation to answer the "Mit Check". The enrage mechanics of an encounter being the DPS checks. The most rewarding being the DPS check of course as the better you do, the faster the boss dies and the encounter concludes, and can also be rewarding with skipping mechanics (dont think I'll ever forget about Zurvan EX's Soar) and the such.

Healing is such a afterthought for FFXIV, and it shows with so many people wanting a fleshed out DPS rotation for their healers. I mean, look up any video about getting into healing for FFXIV, and they will all say, "Healers also need deal damage" because otherwise you see healers doing nothing or healing when no damage is happening. It is usually the first thing any guide explains. Thats how engrained it is into the designs of the game.

DPS is mentioned first, actually fulfilling the role is 2nd, and that is exactly how SE sees the role and how it is expected to play in-game. Giving Healers the tools to heal, without interrupting their DPS because them dealing damage first and foremost is more important. We ought to just have 6 Dancers rotate Curing Waltz instead of 2 Healers, cause thats what it seems like Healers are already (as an exaggeration).

[Renathras]

So the answer is to not be bored. However if you add new abilities, you'd assume dps would be higher since you're putting in more effort as well as are literally casting more spells than before. Why wouldn't you do more damage if you're doing more?

Because you...want this, right? You didn't want to do more damage, so why would you assume you'd do more? You WANTED to not be bored. So the goal should be that you aren't bored. If you're doing the same damage, but not bored, then the mission has been a success, has it not? The objective has been accomplished. Since the objective was not being bored, then nothing else need be done, yes?

I believe it was the YouTuber Misshapen Chair who advocated more complex DPS rotations on the healers, but he said his goal was "not being bored out of (their, including him) f-ing minds". Part of his proposal included "Leave White Mage alone" (the guy's sarcastic about it, but basically was saying for people that don't want DPS stuff), but to make the other three really complex, but approached the question of "what about the people who want to be rewarded with more damage", answering it "Tell them their reward is not HAVING FUN and not BEING BORED (out of their F-ing minds)" and to "shut up about a WHOLE 2% dps variance".

The video is "Healing In FFXIV Is Not Fun" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbWubxOTUWU& , and is actually a good watch since he agrees with you guys on pretty much everything.

The point is, if the point is to "not be bored", then how much damage you do or don't do above someone else isn't relevant.

That's only relevant if your goal isn't simply to "not be bored" but is to "do more damage than other players". But that's also a very different argument. It ceases to be about personal enjoyment everyone can feel sympathy for you over and want to help you out to...well...an argument more akin to elitism, which most MMO players don't tend to take as kindly to.

It’s because we don’t want to be bored. Obviously. This has been said literally dozens of times by dozens of people. However, as a consequence of healers’ DPS kits being more fleshed out, there will inevitably be people who are better and people who are worse just as there are now but it will be slightly more noticeable. Obviously.

Not really. The only difference would be based on the numbers assigned to the abilities. Imagine, for example, that on SCH right now, Energy Drain did 1 potency of damage. Engaging with it optimally would, in absolute terms, give you more DPS than not doing so...but the margin wouldn't be noticeable. Granted, the margin is barely noticeable NOW. The point is, that's a matter of tuning. And when I said "Sure, so how about 1%?", people were like "NO! It needs to be like 10% or something or people won't feel rewarded". Now hang on, I thought the reward was not being bored. Which is it?

Hence why I asked the question.

If it's because you don't want to be bored, we could give you a complex rotation you could do flawlessly that did all of 0 potency different than glare spam, but you'd have that to engage with and so IN THEORY not be bored while doing the same damage. But this is the part where you say "That's not fair" or "It doesn't count unless it's meaningfully different". For example, suppose you had Stone, Air, and Water. Air does half the damage of Stone and Water does 1/4th. But when you use Stone, you get "Air Ready", and so using Air doubles in damage (doing the same as Stone). Then, using Air gives you "Water Ready" causing your next Water spell to do the same damage as Stone. Now you have a clear 1-2-3 combo (which is more complex than a 1-1-1 spam), but does the same exact damage.

Now, herein lies the question:

Do you not want to be bored, or do you want to do more damage than other players?

Because that gives you something to optimize to not be bored WHILE not doing more damage. The question is, is it that you don't want to be bored OR that you want to out damage other players? OR...that you want to not be bored but ALSO want to out damage other players?

The reason I ask the question is that "doing more damage" or "being rewarded with more damage for more work" aren't relevant concepts IF the thing you want and are asking for is ONLY to not be bored. The only reason doing more damage or the damage gap between optimal and not becomes relevant is if you want to DO more damage than other players.

So is that it?

[Renathras]

Understood. However, I think the disconnect is that when I check these forums I see more “Healers need more complex dps rotations” “Healers need more dps options” all I see is about dps. I’ve also seen some suggest more support/utility and they get scolded with “having more utility won’t fix the issues with healers” So basically since SB was loved so much then should every healer get 2 more dots to make them happy? Should they get more traits to lower the cooldown of specific abilities like sch’s quickened aetherflow?

It just seems no matter what people want rather is dps or utility they will always be told that they don’t understand healers and that’s not what will make healers better. So that’s where my confusion comes in. All I’m asking for is a thought out post on what exactly do they want to see on every healer. I think that helps more than just saying “ I want more dps options” “I want more utility”

That’s all I’m saying here.

Yes, it's very frustrating.

And as I pointed out above, it doesn't always even make sense - WHO actually wants WHM to have to cast Cure 1 and 2 to get Lilies? And for the Lilies to just lower the CD of the next Benison (30 seconds base, 28.8 [1.2 sec faster], 27 [3 sec faster], 24 [6 sec faster]), Assize (60 seconds base, 57.6 [2.4 sec faster], 54 [6 sec faster], 48 [12 sec faster]) [Recall that Assize's base CD at this time was 60 sec, meaning you have to now cast THREE Cure 1/2s to get Assize down to a 48 sec CD, which is 8 seconds LONGER than current EW Assize is], or Asylum (90 seconds base, 86.4 [3.6 sec faster], 81 [9 sec faster], 72 [18 sec faster]). Get three Lilies then have to cast a Benison? Congratulations, you just wasted an 18 sec faster Asylum or an Assize 8 seconds LONGER than current to save all of 6 seconds on Benison. Who wants that? Who wants to have to cast Medica/Medica 2/Cure 3 THREE TIMES to get a Plenary effect? Do those things really sound fun?

What about SB WHM do people want, aside from Dia to have an 18 sec duration and Aero 3 as an AOE DoT with a 24 sec rotation? Do people genuinely WANT something else from SB WHM? What?

Despite me reminding people frequently, I think folks somehow DON'T remember how absolutely stupid SB WHM was. "Twirly staff" blocks everything else out somehow.

.

But yeah, people suggest other things and are told those things won't work. Then when anyone says that, they get told "no one ever said that" while...also saying that.

It is interesting that, when asked for a design proposal, it's often talking about the DPS with an occasional token "have Cure 1 upgrade into Cure 2" type of thing, but not really addressing the non-DPS side of the kit. There are exceptions (in the healer forum), but even they tend - TEND - to be more DPS focused.

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For what it's worth, I posted a threat to try to get people talking about the other parts of the SB kits, specific things people wanted from SB to combine with things from now: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ld-be-combined...

...so far, the only post was someone kinda heckling the post in a "why did you post this, we have plenty" kind of snarky reply completely missing the point.

Specifically, people all the time say they want SB kits, or parts of them, back. And I'm asking which parts. For WHM, since I'm told we CAN'T keep the EW WHM as it is, what from SB do people want back? Is it JUST 18 sec Dia and a 24 sec AOE Aero 3? Or do they want to have to cast Cure 1 to generate Lilies which cut Benison's CD by 6 seconds? Because those are pretty different things, and different than a new elemental gauge, new burst windows, or "WHM should be like BLM with big long cast time nukes", as SB WHM didn't have...well...any of those things.

Again showing you cant argue in good faith.

No, that's what you just did.

I actual make posts and arguments while you offer nothing but heckling and this weird fetish about insisting I'm posting in bad faith.

Either you can quantify your positions or you can't. If you can't, you can't use those for arguments. You can't say "people giving no effort shouldn't pull good DPS numbers" if you can't define the line between "no effort" and "effort".

I was fine if cleric stance remained on a single job,

God, Cleric Stance was SUCH an awful ability. The best way I've ever seen it described is "the worst case of rose tinted goggles in MMO history".

I agree having it on one Job could work, if the Job was actually designed around it, but it definitely shouldn't be a role-wide thing for healers.

Technically true, but that doesn't mean your personal DPS was the one deciding factor, or the most important deciding factor. Anyone else doing 10-20% less damage would have also led to a wipe.

True.

Including me.

Meaning if my damage was reduced by 10-20%, that would have been the difference. The point still stands, my friend.

I do agree it'd be great if every PF clear party had excellent DPS players that never died and pulled 99s...but I've yet to be in one that does.

Anytime a party hits enrage at a low percent, everyone is going to feel like there are dozens of things they could’ve done differently anyway, but it’s not one person’s fault. The truth is that the run just isn’t clean enough yet. Your group needs to get a better grip on mechanics.

That's great when you...have a Static or something.

Not so great when you're in PF hell with randoms trying to prog for a week and this party was the closest you got from the random Murphy lottery to an actual clear.

The problem is, that CBU3's idea of difficulty is artificial. It's one shot mechanics.

Yeah, this.

Let's just say I'm not a huge fan of EW encounter design. Savages have body checks. But even here, in EW, they seem to have more - or people are complaining more about them.

But the big issue to me is they've filtered down into Extremes. Some far less than others. Zodiark Ex only has arguably 2 and they're more soft body checks since you can sorta brute force them with enough mitigation (admittedly harder when it was current), Styx. On the other end, Golbez had by my count somewhere between 7 and 9, often several back to back. Zeromus and Barb and Hyd felt a lot more fair, with each having things that could be harder if you didn't have people (party stacks, for example), but which you could potentially get through as a party if you worked together.

This is correct. Body checks everywhere, if one person fails a mechanic making everyone die, I hate these so much along side most raid-wide damage is just "This does just so much damage" making them HP checks, and less about healing, imo. Its another problem that makes healing more about meeting HP checks than doing any consistent healing and because there is no need for constant healing, Healers tend to spend their time DPSing. Cause most times during a raid, you are either at full hp, nearly dead (from a raid wide), or dead.

Yeah, "mitigation checks". "This WILL 100% the party unless you use mitigation, then it will do 90% and the healers can heal people up. Oh, and we're giving most of the mitigation to DPS and Tanks. And for parties of WHM + AST, may god have mercy upon your poor non-barrier souls."

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Okay, this is long enough. Going to stop there, cut it in half, maybe thirds...

Hm. Still long, but perhaps better...

[Shougun]

God, Cleric Stance was SUCH an awful ability. The best way I've ever seen it described is "the worst case of rose tinted goggles in MMO history".

I agree having it on one Job could work, if the Job was actually designed around it, but it definitely shouldn't be a role-wide thing for healers.

I also greatly disliked cleric stance. >...<;;

I don't mind that others liked it, though from my post definitely you could see even the general concept I'd think should have been 'smoothed'. For example Warrior used to have to be Esuna'd by a healer due to their self pacification after berserk, certainly thematic but it's the kind of thematic that is like eating your own toe nails (imo). I am probably the king of thematic desires in the forums and even when I read stuff like that I have mental gag reflex lol. (It's also why I /greatly/ dislike BLU's Diamondback and Moonflute mechanics, I just think they're entirely unfun and could easily be made fun while still feeling thematic or unique, and any use by them by my part is not because they are fun but because their effects are too potent to ignore... emotionally pressured into using them, just like old warrior berserk and healer cleric stance were totally worth using anyways). I've already exampled a few variations for BLU, and recently made a weak outline for bringing back a more friendly (yet allowing for a decently high skill ceiling) cleric stance.

Like I used to stance dance as a tank and I hated it, and I, personally, am glad I no longer have to do that. Though I can see certain tanks might have certain mechanics remain that could be fun mental dances, like when it was a discussion I was mentioning unique Oath mechanics for Paladin. Or before BLU was released potentially describing Azure Eye and Immortal Lion stance mechanics that allowed it to tank.


Generally I would like to see jobs attempt to meet certain people in the place they enjoy (while not being too balance different). Ideally not changing too much once establishing a crowd too (can revamp jobs but it would be unfortunate to remove a playstyle from the game entirely). Other unfortunate element is because we are opting for more jobs than specializations (which is fine), you don't get to play a job theme you like in different styles. Like say how you might play a Paladin as a healer, tank, or damage dealer in WoW (as they have less 'jobs' but use that to allow each job more options). Win some lose some.


It's interesting to read everyone's takes on the situation. Since I don't "main" healer I've only had minor thoughts to add here and there, with the largest being the suggestion of splitting the healers down offensive playstyle and supportive (SCH/SGE offensive, AST/WHM defensive). End result of damage being similar but the road to get there being thematically different for different people. WHM might get pray which replaces cure 1 trap, an oGCD heal that you can use with high chance after you or an ally you've buffed takes damage. Maybe Holy gets buffed per prayer in a way that makes focusing on buffing allies and building prayer more effective Holy over Holy spam (meaning damage and stun duration may be O_o on first cast). Out of combat pray could charge up (so when you first start a dungeon you can charge the first wall to wall pull). Just shifts that make the end results be similar but, the action to action more focused on two types of healers. The blood drenched healers and the team players who picked healer because they wanted to be, in the cool way, the team's cheerleader.

Plus I think this way simply because I think changing other systems is going to be a bigger pain in the choco booty, with potentially game wide nerfs to fix all the system wide issues that lead to healers being, or at least feeling, optional in some content. Though I am all for reading people's reasons why they think it's worth it.


Not that I have a major horse in the race... I enjoy playing most of the healers, particularly in PvP though lol, but I haven't ran a dungeon for 50000 times to die of 1 2 damage spam (I have seen where once geared, or sync on older content, you can oGCD the party especially if your tank uses their support skills too, just haven't had to run the dungeons so much that it makes me bored).